Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott Card's Involvement

August 25, 2009 -

Shadow Complex, an adventure game in the vein of Castlevania or Super Metroid, became available for sale last week on Xbox Live Arcade. While the game has garnered impressive reviews, some are upset by the fact that its plot has been derived from the fiction of Orson Scott Card, a known campaigner against gay rights.  Gamers upset by this news are suggesting a boycott to ensure their dollars don’t end up funding Card's political agenda.

In an opinion piece for Gamasutra, Christian Nutt sees the idea of boycotting a game based on the political views of one of the creative influences as a sign that video games are growing up:

When Shadow Complex was announced, I personally was torn. I'd already long since made the conscious decision to not support Orson Scott Card directly with my money...

 

What bothers me is people who suggest that it's a non-issue because the topic of discussion is a game... "Remember back when we were kids and we just enjoyed games?" asks Wizman23.

Yes, I do. But we are not kids anymore... I was 32 on the day [Shadow Complex] became available for download on Xbox Live... I can't approach things the way I did as a child. That's not me being self-righteous; I mean that I literally cannot do this...

 

And that's why it's acceptable to talk about this... If we can have meaningful political discussion in other media, we can have it in games.

From all accounts, Shadow Complex looks like a very fun game.  For those who are put off by Card’s involvement, Nutt points to a suggestion offered up at GayGamer: buy the game and make a donation to a gay-positive charity to offset any profit Card may see from the sale.
 
-Reporting from San Diego, GamePolitics Senior Correspondent Andrew Eisen...


Comments

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Zippy, people already boycott the bible because it's misused.

---

Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Thats becuse its agisnt thier religoin! *ba dum dum bish*

:P


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! Stop supporting big media and furthering the criminalization of consumers!! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

What the hell ever happened to the Ender's Game movie that was supposed to be made?

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

I just find it funny that a game with the backing of such a famous author has almost no story. It's still worth the $15 imo but still a bit disappointing in that regard.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

"Christian Nutt sees the idea of boycotting a game based on the political views of one of the creative influences as a sign that video games are growing up"

Hmm...no. I think it's a sign that a whole bunch of people are idiots. Card won't see any money from this game, and even if he did, the game itself doesn't share any of his views. Calling for a boycott on this game will hurt noone except the developers who have made a very quality product.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Hmm, this is a weird split for me. On the one hand I support anyone's right to propose or support a boycott against something because of their beliefs, I mean we all do it, just we don't term it a boycott. I don't buy used games from anywhere if I can still get them new somewhere. I don't boycott used games, I just don't buy them. I also don't buy american brand cars (most specifically Chevy and Ford) because I feel they are more likely to break down. I don't try to boycott them though.

I think the difference is that in one instance it's a single person making a choice. Boycotting suggests a larger group. Now it's obvious because of the discussions going on that a large ENOUGH group to be noticed is not purchasing the game because of the views of someone who is involved in it. I've seen several comments from people on here about the used game comments some CEOs are making along the lines of "I won't be buying their games anymore" and suggestions to do the same. I really see it as the same thing, just different issues and viewpoints.

Personally I don't have a 360. If I did I wouldn't purchase this game. I would inform all my friends who I feel might agree with my opinion about this one man's comments and actions about them and let them decide their own actions in relation.

At the end of the day though, someone is going to buy the game, and no one will not have the option to. So because of that, I support the people who are boycotting. They are using their market given rights and freedom of decision to exercise what little influence they have. It might not harm the guy who made those comments, but it does send a message to developers that that kind of intolerance of homosexuals is not accepted by a group of gamers, and that if they want that group to buy their games, they need to be tolerant.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Meh the way stock gets liqudated after a few months to a year or so you can get a "new" game at used game prices.


Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! Stop supporting big media and furthering the criminalization of consumers!! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Exactly. If I don't want to pay the new game price I just wait.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Both of the opinions stated in your post are based on misinformation.  First things first, with a few exceptions, American cars are much more reliable than their Asian counterparts.  European cars are a little more reliable, but are much more expensive.  Consumers Digest can back this up.

Second, as has been posted here many, many times, OSC's personal views aren't in this game.  OSC would not be hurt in any way by a boycott of this game, as any money he'd be getting for this game, he would have already gotten.  Choosing not to buy this game solely on the basis of Card's personal views does not make any sort of political or personal victory, as the person you are fighting wouldn't be harmed in the least.

---

Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Both of the opinions stated in your post are based on misinformation.  First things first, with a few exceptions, American cars are much more reliable than their Asian counterparts.  European cars are a little more reliable, but are much more expensive.  Consumers Digest can back this up.

I hate to go off topic, but I had to address this.

I don't know if American companies sell different cars or something here in Canada, but let me tell you, they DO NOT compete with the Asian and Euro cars here. The American cars rust faster, get worse mileage, and often the parts aren't even any cheaper. Not to mention they're American... and I've got to be honest, buying American isn't exactly my idea of a good time or money well spent.

You want a good car here? Get a Honda or Toyota. They will outlast most other vehicles despite our harsh climate.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Yes, the cars are different in Canada, as Canadian regulations are different than here in America.  That's why the cars are different in Europe, Asia and Australia, too.  However, that doesn't change the fact that asian cars rarely get over 150,000 miles on them, whereas American vehicles, 175,000 is average over the lifetime of the car.

---

Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

1. My personal experience with both american and foreign cars tells me otherwise.

2. It's not about OSC's beliefs being in the game, it's about associatign the game with his beliefs.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

1.  Well, you're experiences may suck, but stat's don't lie.

2.  The association of the game with OSC's beliefs is based on the fallicy that has been destroyed multiple times on this board.

---

Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

It's an association with him which causes the problem. And hey if you got a reliable ford more power to you. In my experience and every family member and friend I have Toyota, Hyndai (spl?) and other foreign companies have more reliable vehicles and the parts are usually actually cheaper. I know for one thing Ford used to not produce the original parts for their engines for after market sale so that if something broke you had to buy the whole system instead of just the piece that broke. I believe they stopped this practice but frankly I don't trust american businessmen to look out for the consumers.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

If Tom Clancy was secretly Heinrich Himmler in disguise, would it still be OK to buy Ghost Recon and Splinter Cell knowing that? According to everyone here and on every game blog, yes. Ya know, because even though Orson Scott Card's vision of a utopia is a universe where segregation is taken to new levels and homosexuality is outlawed it doesn't mean that the people he worked with agree with him in any way.  

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

"utopia is a universe where segregation"

Source?

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Read the sequels to Ender's Game. Even as a 16 year old I realized there was something a bit off about keeping people of different cultures on their own planet.   

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

"If Tom Clancy was secretly Heinrich Himmler in disguise, would it still be OK to buy Ghost Recon and Splinter Cell knowing that?"

Yes.

I find the political leanings of the television station Fox to be loathesome, but that isn't going to stop me from watching The Simpsons.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

The whole idea of this so-called boycott is ludicrous.  Everyone seems to be thinking that Card sees any money from this game, despite numerous reports otherwise.

Card did not create the Empire universe.  Chair created it, Chair owns it.  Card was offered the chance to write both the novel and the story of the game, but obviously he only went with the former as Peter David penned the story of the game.  He is a licensee of the IP.  He had zero involvement with the game.  Epic/Chair have only used his name in connection with game for marketing purposes to bank off of Empire and Ender's Game.

What astounds me is how gamers, hell even developers, choose to simply ignore this point despite it being reported all over the place.  Even in the original article itself on Kotaku that started all this "outrage".  Instead they're all choosing to kick and scream about Card's stance on Gay Rights and acting all self righteous by saying they won't buy the game because they don't want their money going to him, all while ignoring the fact that it wouldn't anyway.

If people want to have a Gay Rights debate that's all well and good, though personally I don't even consider the idea that there's anything to debate about (in case that wasn't obvious I'm very much on the for side of the argument).  However, to turn some random person's woefully uninformed opinion into a boycott centered around an issue that, 1) isn't event related to the game itself (as near a I can tell there's nothing involving Gay Rights in SC and I've been told it's the same for Empire, I may be mistaken though) and 2) is factually wrong, is just plain idiotic.

To continue calling for a boycott while willfully ignoring the facts and having little debates not only makes you look foolish, but also negates your arguments in your little debates no matter how well eloquently spoken.  Keep the "outrage" in check people.  There are things in the world to truly feel outraged over and this is not one of them.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

I think people focus too much on how it affects Card. Think more about the message this is sending to developers, that some gamers don't like this kind of intolerance and hate towards gays, and recognize that while it won't hurt Card, it might diminish anti-gay messages in games.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

But that's my entire point, albeit from another angle.  This call for a boycott is born out of disagreement with Card's personal views and nothing to do with the game or book itself.  The only message that's being sent here is "We'll buy your game if we agree with your personal beliefs", and that is some straight up Beck/O'Reiley style bullshit.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Why? Why is it a bad thing to hold a company responsible for who they associate themselves with? We do it in advertising all the time, in fact 33 of Fox news advertisers recently asked to have their ads removed from Beck's show because of an issue like this.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

No, this isn't an issue like that at all.  Glenn Beck is using his Fox show and radio show to make those statements that are costing him advetisers.  Beck's shows are the product and those statements being made on them make them a part of that product.  Thus advetisers don't want to be seen endorsing a product that sends that message.

Now, in the case of Shadow Complex you have people getting all "outraged" and calling for a boycott of a product over a message that wasn't a part of the product.  Like I've said, and others as well, before, Card's views on homosexuality are not part of Empire or Shadow Complex, they were in a completely sepearate piece (an essay on the subject to be specific).

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

But they are attached to Card, who has become in a way attached to the game. Chair would have been better off not inviting him write for them if they wanted to avoid this (though I doubt anyone could have seen this whole issue coming).

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Considering the political viewpoint involved, I'd say more of a Rather/Olbermann style of bullshit.

---

Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

funny thing but some days i'm vehementaly anti-gay and some days i am the opposite.  Some days i'll get really disgusted with homophobes and some days i'll agree with the homophobes and say that being gay is a disease.

yeahhh... kindoff off topic

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

To me that says you incorporate new information into your opinion, which is good. If it really varies to that degree though, I wonder how extreme the information you are incorporating is O.o...

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

The trouble is, this and every game is made by more than just one person. In this case, I would bet an employee of Chair (the developer) would feel the economic hurt of a boycott more than Mr Card would.

Also, unless you have no real opinions/beliefs, there are guaranteed to be people who offend your values behind every product and service out there...

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

while i dont personally agree with campaigning against gays, how many games have the people who are suggesting the boycott bought that are degrading to and objectify women? how many games have they bought, and continue to buy, that are developed by people who have sexually harassed women?  that are produced by people who are abusive to minorities?

how many of the boycotters play the call of duty games? support the troops, even though some of them participate in anit-gay hate crimes?  dont ask, dont tell, or well beat you senseless with a soap filled sock.

protesting is a funny thing.  lots of people protest for a particular cause or another, yet almost 99 times out of 100, they are perfectly fine with some other injustice that goes on in the world.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

I think much of that comes down to picking your battles.

If one cared (and acted) on everything, life would be pretty much impossible.  But acting on a few things still sends a social message.    Thought TBH I question how effective boycotts are unless you have a really good PR company working for you to make it look like you are dangerous.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Actually boycotts have been one of the most effective tools of the gay movement in history. Even when it wasn't related to gay issues specifically. In fact one of the most well known ones is the Coors boycott. It started actually as gays boycotting Coors in the gay bars in the west coast. This wasn't because Coors had anti-gay policies but because the teamsters union agreed to support certain gay initiatives in return for gays boycotting Coors (which was treating the teamsters badly). The boycott was huge and actually is only beginning to recede to a point where it isn't considered a strong boycott today. There are still some gay bars you can go to that don't (and won't) serve Coors.

The effectiveness of boycotts is based on the actual amount of people following them, which is why this one likely won't have a huge effect. But they can be effective if enough people are involved, and even without big PR support word of mouth CAN do that.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

When the Dixie Chicks were boycotted by Republicans it was supposed to be a McCarthy style blacklist in action.  What is this? 

If I boycotted everything that was connected to someone I disagreed with politically I wouldn't be able to walk outside my house.  Whether it be Rosie O'Donnell or Orson Scott Card, if their product entertains me then they are doing their job and I will recognize them for that.

GameDrunk - Celebrating our two greatest passions.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

 Orson Scott Card is more than just anti-gay-marriage, he basically thinks there's going to be a sort of race war equivilent between gay and straight people. He's completely out of his damn mind. 

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Source?

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

 http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/05/orson_scott_card_goes_off_the.php

Okay my mistake, it's less "race war" and more anti-government revolution. 

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Woah! No wonder all the henchmen in Shadow Complex are all dudes.

And "Lucius"? That's the gayest supervillian name I've yet to hear. It all makes sense now! /s

But seriously, I see a Penny Arcade comic coming.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Try reading the accused's entire article instead of the paraphrasing opinion of another person that takes it out of context next time. While I don't agree with all OSC views I can definately see his point and his theoretical eventual outcome. And his reasoning is at the very least interesting and coherent as opposed to rambling and hate filled as people appear to be impying.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

 What his point that gay marriage personally threatens his idea of manhood and so no one should be allowed to have it?

His reasoning is not coherent. Just because people have different views than you on something doesn't mean they should be denied it. Not everyone agrees with his idea on gender roles either but should we then deny marriage to working women? What if someone said they thought alcohol was morally wrong and lifting prohibition was the government willfilly combating good, sober society and so they would be justified in overturning said government? Would they sound crazy then?

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

What if someone said they thought alcohol was morally wrong and lifting prohibition was the government willfilly combating good, sober society and so they would be justified in overturning said government? Would they sound crazy then?

Absolutely not. It is well within our Constitutional rights to overthrow the government if we as the people feel that it does not have our best interests in mind.

If the majority of the people in the US believed that lifting prohibition was the wrong thing to do, they are right to call for an overthrow of government.

Same goes for everything. It was well within the rights of the citizens of the Southern states to arise and seek removal from the Union over many reasons chiefly among them the right to own slaves. It was well within their rights to resist the Federal government's efforts to force them to stay in the union. It is well within the rights of many modern day Southerners to maintain that belief.

It is well within the right of people to express and act on the belief that marriage should only be between a man and a woman. The yhave a constitutional right to have that belief and petition their government to enforce that belief. They also have a right to rise up against a government that does not act on that same belief.

Whether acting on any of these beliefs is ethical or morally right is up to debate.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Technicalities aside I asked "would they sound crazy?" The idea of overthrowing the country over something like that sure sounds crazy to me. My point is people tend to see nothing wrong with railing against gay marriage rights and yet they don't think about what it would sound like if "gay mariage" was replaced with a different subject.

I was asking is it okay to have laws denying rights to other people just because they don't have the same outlook as you. For example again, because people like Orson Scott Card believe in strict gender roles should we pass a law saying a woman has to quit her job before she can obtain a marriage lisence? What about denying marriage rights to infertile people because a large majority believes marriage requires having kids? Hell maybe we should deny people the right not to go to church because a vast majority of Americans believe it's wrong.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

The problem with the "denying rights" argument as it relates to gay marriage is that it doesn't apply.  Gay's don't have the right to marry someone of the same gender.  Do I, as a straight man, have the right to marry another man?  No.  I have the right to marry a woman.  If I were gay, I'd still have the right to marry a woman.  By allowing gay marriage, a right would be "created."  Everything would still be equal, as straight people would also be granted the right to marry someone of the same gender, but there is no inequality now.  At least, no inequality that wouldn't still exist if gay marriage was legal, only on the other side.

---

Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Remember when a white man couldn't marry a black woman, but it was perfectly legal for him to marry within his own race? Yeah. I mean just what was people's problem with that? I guess a "special right" was "created" when we allowed interracial marriage too?

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

I do not have the right to marry the person I am in love with as you do. Therefore our rights are not equal. Right after slavery ended in our country black people got theri own schools and water fountains too.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

"It is well within our Constitutional rights to overthrow the government if we as the people feel that it does not have our best interests in mind."

That sounds like it's subversion or treason or some such criminal activity which will quickly land your ass in federal prison if you even so much as try it.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

'We the people' indeed.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Actually, I think that he is right. I mean, that gay and straight people will end fighting each other.

For example, in Brazil there are a psychiatrist that changed gay people in straight people (but that psychiatrist never advertised it, it was the ex-gays that went around in word-of-mouth and made other gays that do not wanted to be gay go and have a treatment...), that psychiatrist got banned from psychiatry because of that. On the news article discussing that, there were gays accusing her of being a "anti-gay" and stuff and calling her evil, while ex-gays were calling gays depraved persons with evil minds.

 

Another example: The  government here made a law against discrimination, you cannot deny something to someone based on their race, sex, religion or sexual orientation.

Result: Companies avoid the best as they can black, women and gays to avoid being sued for stupity, or they plainly hire all gays that ask a job (because if you deny you may get sued for discrimination). Inside the companies that hire all gays, there are a hate between the gays and non-gays because the non-gays believe that they are getting fired (And they are actually getting fired) to give space to gays get hired. The gays get upset with all the anti-gay people that are created from that situation and press it too.

Third example: Because the same mentioned discrimination law, religions that are anti-gay now are obliged to accept gays in places that are speficially anti-gay, like the christian religions (at least the majority of them), and to not get sued some simply move away from gays, or close, or something like that (I know for example of a orphanage that closed down because the government obliged them to have gay workers, and this was against their religion), after this happen, the straight people in the area plainly get extremely upset with gays and gay rights and that stuff.

 

Fourth example: Probably somewhere around this post a flamewar will erupt around the issue.

 

 

People forget that their rights should end when someone else right start, like gays can have the right to have a civil union, christians can have the right to deny gay marriage (note: civil union is diffrent from marriage, one is a civil status that confer rights to the couple, the other is a religious sacrament).

 

criadordejogos.wordpress.com

--- MaurĂ­cio Gomes twitter.com/agfgames

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

Another example: The  government here made a law against discrimination, you cannot deny something to someone based on their race, sex, religion or sexual orientation.

Result: Companies avoid the best as they can black, women and gays to avoid being sued for stupity, or they plainly hire all gays that ask a job (because if you deny you may get sued for discrimination). Inside the companies that hire all gays, there are a hate between the gays and non-gays because the non-gays believe that they are getting fired (And they are actually getting fired) to give space to gays get hired. The gays get upset with all the anti-gay people that are created from that situation and press it too.

Oh man, this is a MAJOR problem in Canada. Minorities and gays get preferential treatment in schools and workplaces across the country. I know it's the government's fault for this, but many people blame the communities themselves, and nationalism and racism are on the rise.

To be honest, in many cases these people bring it on themselves. I was once told by a Lebanese girl she wouldnt' date me because her parents wouldn't agree with it (because I'm Canadian). You can only imagine how much this enraged people. I have many other examples, and I can safely say the most racist and offensive people in the country are minorities, as they flex their muscles and know they can get away with it due to the laws protecting them from the majority.

It's a shame, because I have also met many people who came here for a better life and are really on the ball. Seriously need to be a bit pickier about who we let in though, damn. I'm not really sure what triggers the stupidity of people, but Canada suffers the same problems as Brazil.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

And on the marriage thing in the US marriage is the legal civil union term. Heterosexual couples married outside a religious institution are still "married". They just aren't "married" in the eyes of any church. I can't comment on where you are since I don't know where that is.

Here in America we also value equality, which as a country we long ago decided seperate but equal was not equal, so for us based on our own precedents, civil union =/= marriage.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

That kind of gets at what my solution to the gay marriage debate would be.  Leave "marriage" solely to the churches.  The only thing any couple, hetero, homo, or whatever, can get from the government is a civil union.  That way the government is treating everybody equally, and the churches are free to bicker amongst themselves about "the sanctity of marriage" or whatever, without involving the rest of us in it.

Re: Gamers Propose Shadow Complex Boycott Over Orson Scott ...

If you're saying turn all legal speak on the term from marriage into civil union I would support that.

 
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MechaTama31Heh. I don't think you need a master's in politics to see that... ;)09/30/2014 - 7:32am
Matthew WilsonTrust me i read the same sites.I have a Master's in Applied Politics. I get to see through the spin both Left and Right that tend to be put on news stories.09/30/2014 - 1:02am
WymorenceI also have an extremely hard time in listening to people who froth at the mouth when the POTUS does something almost identical to the previous POTUS, but for some reason is subhuman for it this time around09/30/2014 - 12:43am
WymorenceThe problem is that opposing views are a good thing, but sites like Brietbart and their ilk are the exact opposite. 9/10 times they tweak the news to benefit their own views instead of just giving their own side of it.09/30/2014 - 12:41am
james_fudgeIf I were in a cult I might try and shut myself away from opposing views...09/29/2014 - 11:48pm
james_fudgeoh and Nate Silver and Politico too.09/29/2014 - 11:48pm
 

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