Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

August 27, 2009 -

Are gay characters and themes more acceptable in video games these days?

Gay publication The Advocate examines the issue in Are Games Getting Gayer? For the article, author Bryan Ochalla spoke to, among others, game designer Brenda Brathwaite, author of Sex in Video Games. Braithwaite said:

We still haven’t seen the kind of normalization [of LGBT characters and story lines] that we’ve seen in movies and on TV for some time. We still haven’t had our Brokeback Mountain moment.


It took them a while, but developers... [are] getting hip to the fact that there are LGBT gamers out there who want to control LGBT characters... The almighty dollar talks as much in this industry as it does in any other, and we all know the gay market is nothing to sneeze at in that regard...

 

We also have to stop putting things into games that turn off gay players How many games have you played that put you in control of a male character and then asked you to save a princess?

Openly gay Maxis game designer Jeb Havens (no word as to whether he was impacted by yesterday's layoff) commented:

[Game developers are] moving away from the stereotype of the angry, homophobic teen boy ... toward a broader picture of who is buying and playing games... We’re starting to see a willingness to experiment with stories and characters that would appeal to more diverse audiences.


Comments

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

The reason I used those examples as what you might be worried about is that unfortunatly they are some of the most common examples (especially the fear of religions being forced to recognize gay marriage against their beliefs) used to argu against gay marriage and gay rights in general. My post was responding to you but it was a broader post to address anyone reading who is against gay marriage.

Also I've yet to see one thing you've posted make any kind of logical arguement against anything.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

That's because I'm not arguing against gay marriage.  I've said that countless times.  I said that in the post.  All I was pointing out is the holes in the argument FOR gay marriage.  If you're going to argue for something that will (whether you like it or not) change the face of our nation, you need solid, logical arguments.  I have yet to see any arguments for gay marriage that would meet this standard.  These are the only two arguments I've ever heard for it.  Everything else I've heard from supporters of gay marriage are reasons why those who oppose gay marriage ABSOLUTELY MUST be uber-religious homophobes more concerned with political dominance than anything.  If that's really the only argument you have, along with the two flawed arguments I've discussed, you're not going to win the cause, as you're making a mess that can't be cleaned up.

---

He was dead when I got here.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Quite piss-poor, actually. All you did was jump on the defensive/persecuted (again) and go into wild projection (again) while leaving substantial gaps in your "logical arguements" and, surprise surprise, never citing a single "fact" or "point" in how many posts in this thread? The only thing you even got right was how marriage has more often than not in the past been used as a contract, often arranged, of mutual benefit for the parties involed - after that you basically went back into your standard shithole of a posting while projecting your hatred onto the other side.

So basically, this is par for the course from you.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Um, no...I was projected upon.  I merely turned it around.  Also, thanks for pointing out those "gaps" in my logic...oh, wait, all you did was say the same shit you say everywhere else.  No suprise.

---

He was dead when I got here.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Its funny how your "turning it around" is very familiar to your usual persecution complex you carry around on here, so excuse me if I call that a load of BS from you.

As for your gaps, you didn't ask for them before, you asked for a review of your arguement, which I gave you. But since you, as per usual, rudely dismissed them as nonexistent, here's just a couple for now.

 

Mostly unrelated point - a majority of homosexuals do not have monogomous relationships.  This is why AIDS is still an issue amongst homosexuals.  Therefore, since marriage is all about monogomy, the love argument for gay marriage cannot be used.

Of course you won't cite anything for it though, being as intellectually dishonest as you are.

 

Straight men can't marry other men, nor can straight women marry other women.  Since straight people can't marry people of their same gender, claiming that gay people can't marry people of the same gender is inequal is logically and factually wrong.  Also, nowhere is there a law saying gay people cannot marry someone of the opposite gender, as straight people can.  Once again, claiming inequality doesn't fit.

Wrong and misleading. Wrong because same-sex marriage is legalized in Massachusettes, Vermont, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Maine, and several nations as a whole - and in not one of them do they ask for your orientation or a reason for the marriage in the first place. Misleading because you know damn well that gay couples receive frequently denied the same rights, benefits, and priviledges straight couples are because of the fact they can't get married in many states - I've even gone as far as to list and cite (because I actually think its good to be credible) everything gay couples are denied in previous topics here, and I'll be doing it again in another post here. and before you chime in that they should just move to one of the places I listed, thats not an option for everyone. Your assertion that because straight people can't marry the same gender that they're perfectly equal is intellecually dishonest and misleading because its nothing but a black-and-white arguement that leaves several gray areas out intentionally.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

You're never going to get a valid argument back.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Excuse me?  When the fuck have I said 'omg teh gays' you asshat?  I could give less of a fuck what they do.  I honestly don't even care if they get married.  All I have ever had to say about it was that they can't force a church to marry them, which doesn't really matter because the church ceremony has no legal bearing on marriage, nor is it possible for the government to force a church to marry gays.

But I have some advice for you.

1) Buy tampon.

2) use it to stop the flow of stupid from your gob

3) put 2 through your eyes, and spare us more of your stupidity and vitriol.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Classic conservative hatred here, folks.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Who, Austin? Austin hasn't done shit in this thread, and doesn't even seem particularly sided on the political spectrum (yes, he is conservative, but that isn't readily apparent in this thread, only his common sense is apparent in this thread).

Frankly, I'm a bit confused by your post...

-If an apple a day keeps the doctor away....what happens when a doctor eats an apple?-

-Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis-It is best to endure what you cannot change-

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

So his hateful "adivce" and his constant resorting to ad-homems is common sense now?

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

I forgot.  When a liberal like thefremen makes baseless accusations and acts like a douchebag, it's ok.  But when I mock him for being such a whiny bitch, it's hateful. 

This seems to be popping up a lot lately.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

I haven't seen him reccommending physical harm on someone, wheras I just have to look a few posts up to see you doing that though.

 

Imagine that.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

His post is just classic liberal elitist hatred.

Also, I'm libertarian, not conservative.  I believe that gays have every right to be legally married, just no right to be married in certain churches.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Huh, I didn't know that. There are a lot more libertarians on this site than I thought, yay ^^

-If an apple a day keeps the doctor away....what happens when a doctor eats an apple?-

-Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis-It is best to endure what you cannot change-

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Yeah I gotta apologize for that, although Austin_Lewis is pretty easy to troll as far as most conservative issues go, he actually hasn't had a history of raging out against the homos. Should have said "Father Time" instead.

BTW, not so sure if "liberal elitist" can be applied to someone who's been part of demonstrations trying to get Feinstein out of office and isn't elite in any sense of the word.

But yeah, sorry, I did indeed attribute a point of view to you which did not apply, please don't report me to OBAMA'S EVIL DEATH PANEL. 

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Wait, was Austin calling you or Mr. Pat a liberal elitist?

Sorry for jumping to the conclusion that you were liberal, guess I shouldn't rush like that. I disagree with your opinions on the current use of gay people in video games, but shouldn't have started introducing politics into it, because you weren't suggesting applying laws and government control on the subject.

-Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis-It is best to endure what you cannot change-

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

So pointing out the hateful comments in some of your posts is now more hateful than what you've actually said? Yeah, thats sound...

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Al Sharpton Hillary Clinton, Oooga Booga!

If you mentioned 9/11 a couple extra times, you would be like Rudy himself.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

This is exactly what he's talking about.

---

Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

So do I. I love the secret conservatives on these threads just as much as the fark independents.

*sips wine*

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

"We also have to stop putting things into games that turn off gay players. How many games have you played that put you in control of a male character and then asked you to save a princess?"

So, Braithwaite's premise is that having a male character save a princess is enough to "turn off" a gay person from playing a game.  Wouldn't it then also be true that having a male character save a prince would turn off a straight person from playing the game? (If anything, I'd say this is more likely.  I'm sure there are far more homophobes out there than heterophobes.)  And isn't that a much larger chunk of people that you are "turning off"?  She can't go on about the economic impact of alienating gay people in one sentence, and then turn right around and completely ignore the economic impact of alienating straight people, a vastly larger group.

That being said, I don't think the economics are really the important point here anyway.  Gay people deserve to have the opportunity to play as somebody who they can identify with.  And if some straight people can't cope with that, well, I guess they get to miss out on a few games.  There will be plenty of other games for them, I'm sure.  And really, it doesn't have to alienate anyone.  Mass Effect is a good example of how a story can allow for several possible pairings (conspicuously lacking male-male, however).  Or just have an option you can set to turn your game's princess into a prince.  They are usually only marginally involved in the game anyway, more of a goal than a character.  It wouldn't take too much work to record two versions of the necessary dialogue, have two sets of models and textures, etc.  Economically, it probably is not worth the effort, and that's a silly tack to take in this argument.  It's just the right thing to do.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

 I wouldn't necessarily say that they are expanding, but I would argue that the hyper-masculine themes are definitely slowing down (As long as Epic Games tones it down). Although I would think it was cool if they expanded the themes implicitly.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

"We also have to stop putting things into games that turn off gay players How many games have you played that put you in control of a male character and then asked you to save a princess?"

Really? Seriously? I have a reasonable amount of respect for Brenda Brathwaite, but I guess she must be having a serious off-day. Ignoring the fact that most rescuable princesses in videogames exist only as interchangeable McGuffins that explain the context of the characters quest and have nothing to do with the player's motivation for playing the game (lest the player be very, very, disppointed), and ignoring also the issue of what kind of idiot would actively be turned off of a game on account of something so incidental, there's an extremely large problem with this line of thought: the SECOND you assert that "gay players" have any measure of entitlement to videogames starring (or even featuring) a gay main character, you must accept that "straight players" have an equal measure of entitlement to videogames starring (or even featuring) straight characters. This being the case, what's a scenario writer (or person landed with the unfortunate task of penning an incidental story for a game) to do? Presuming story is important to the game in the first place, norms will only be differed from (scenario-wise) when it's important to the author's direction for the story. Everything else will be as marketable as possible. What's important to the plot is things like the main character's experiences, the lessons s/he learns, the things s/he does in the name of the real super power of teamwork/friendship/love/the-heart-of-the-cards, etc. Unless sexuality is a main theme, the relative gender of the main character's love interest is essentially interchangeable, and as such, will side with the norm, since if people are as stupidly bigoted as Brathwaite seems to think they are about the main character's sexuality, one group is going to get offended either way, and you'd better believe anyone chasing the dollars is going to side with the larger group. Nothing personal.

Aside 1: Which is more offensive, a cast of straight characters or a cast of straight characters + 1 gay character (or 1 gay couple) who are only there to fill a quota?

Aside 2: Just because a character doesn't outwardly (on "camera") express a sexual preference doesn't mean they must be straight. (see, earlier posts. see also, Dumbledore)

Aside 3: In addition to the above, see Ho Yay.

Aside 4: In addition to the above, see games that actually, canonically, have either gay pairings or, in RPGs, gay options for the main character.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

[Game developers are] moving away from the stereotype of the angry, homophobic teen boy

Wait, what?  What games is this guy referring to when he says "homophobic teen boy"?  I can't think of any games off the top of my head where a teenager has said anything about gays.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

I think he means "the stereotype of the angry, homophobic teen boy" as their target audience. 

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

It still doesn't make sense.  There really weren't any anti-gay messages in the games I played.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

How in your view what that accusation being made? Only an idiot would cater to a homophobic audience by including anti-gay material as that would serve to lower sales. On the other hand, if you see homophobic teens as your target or key demographic you would want to also exclude any gay characters or gay plotlines which would offend their sensibilities.  The fact that Sims 3, Fable 2 and the like include the ability to be homosexual or bi means that designers have moved past the idea that they must exclude gay material to sell games.   

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

I find it funny that this whole article was basically someone saying "Games are becoming more gay friendly" and "Involving gay characters in games would make games more inclusive and realistic" and people are attacking it like she is trying to rip the industry a new one. The article is basically praising the advancement.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

The remark was because most AAA games are targetted at a pubescent overhormoned stright teenage boy who finds boobs and girl on girl action hot but thinks two guys kissing is uglier then pictures of what happened at gitmo.

I'm sorry, Mass Effect was a nod to the LGBT community, but it still fell squarly in the homophobic teenage boy catagorey.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Teenage boy, perhaps.  But the "homophobic" tag is unnecessary.  Liking aliens and guns and space marines and lesbian sex with a blue chick, doesn't have anything to do with homophobia.  So adding the "homophobic" tag implies that ALL teenage boys are homophobes.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Most teenage boys would be a bit scared if a man hit on them, or even another teenage boy. Scared or angry.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

And I'd be scared if an 80 year old woman hit on me.  It's normal to be a little anxious if people hit on you who you can't imagine having a physical attraction to.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

I didn't say it wasn't normal. But it seems a bit wrong to avoid the idea that gays exist because of that doesn't it?

I would like to see more gay "scenery" characters. Like a gay couple walking in the background in a city scene, etc.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Wouldn't that be demeaning, I mean they'd be little more than props. That's not very dignified.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Well duh, that's because your a balanced human being. Can't say the same for some people.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

"We also have to stop putting things into games that turn off gay players How many games have you played that put you in control of a male character and then asked you to save a princess?"

We also have to stop putting things into games that turn off straight players. How many games have you played that put you in control of a male character and then asked you to save a prince?

 It's fun to turn things around. But in all serious, it sounds like she now wants to completely remove anything from games that could offend gay people. Since it sounds like rescuing a princess while being a male character would offend gay people, we will 'have to stop putting things into games' like that. Only rescuing princes from now on guys!

I really don't think there's that much to complain about. I suppose you could put some more subtle hints in that some certain character is gay, but beyond that, having something like one of the characters in COD4 just randomly shout out that they're gay, or do something stereotypically gay, would be ridiculous. I'll agree with her in general, but really. We don't need to stop putting things into games that offend gay people, because that would be a bit silly. If we took out everything from games/movies/books that offended someone, we wouldn't have any of those mediums.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

"LGBT characters and story lines shouldn’t be slipped into each and every game, she adds, but “in certain circumstances it not only makes sense but makes the game a richer, more enjoyable experience for everyone.”"

 

FUnny how no one seems to care about her very next sentance *FACEPALM*

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

 Of course they ignore it, they don't want their outrage to be silenced with information that would prove them wrong. Regardless of how close it is.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

games becoming gayer? yes there hasn't been a good release in ages!

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

He's talking about the fact that games generally aren't as good as they used to be.  He's using the word gay as a derogatory term.

I thougt it was hilarious.  I also thought it was hilarious that you missed it.

---

Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Ah I see, very clever of him. I probably missed it because there have been a ton of good games released, and they're released all the time.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

I almost missed it at first, then I remembered the shitstorm created the past couple weeks because of the use of gay as a derogatory

-If an apple a day keeps the doctor away....what happens when a doctor eats an apple?-

-Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis-It is best to endure what you cannot change-

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

One of the reasons I found it hilarious.

---

Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Everytime you call something or someone gay, you piss off Miley Cyrus and that racist bitch Wanda Sykes.  That singular realization is a great motivator to use the pharse more often.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Yeah, who cares what ordinary gays think, this is just about pissing off specific people...

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

All the homosexuals I know seem to not care.  Hell, one of them was saying he thought it hilarious that WANDA SYKES, of all people, was telling people not to say 'that's gay'.

Or do gays with an education not count as 'ordinary'?

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

None of my gay friends have a problem with the use of the word gay.  They use it in all of it's myriad forms.  They also wish the gays demanding gay marriage would shut up, because they believe, as I do, that it'll come when the time is right.

(I'm just waiting for someone to say I have to be lying, because I'm a conservative, so I can't have gay friends, and even if I did, they're gay, so they would be offended by anyone who says gay, or anyone who doesn't think gay marriage should be made legal in the US.  I'm waiting because it's happened to me on GP before.)

---

He was dead when I got here.

--- With the first link, the chain is forged.

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

I know what you mean. If you try to support an argument by saying that you know people of said group, they'll always call bullshit, even if you're telling the truth.

-If an apple a day keeps the doctor away....what happens when a doctor eats an apple?-

-Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis-It is best to endure what you cannot change-

Re: Are Gay Themes Expanding in Video Games?

Because knowing people of a certain group isn't supporting evidence of an argument. Personal experience doesn't really count for much either. I mean, all my Canadian friends are just fine with waiting 5 years and paying tons of cash to become a US citizen so why can't the same be said of Mexicans? Conservatives usually aren't religious at all, I know this because of my conservative friends who love Rush Limbaugh and automatic weapons who are atheists as well. 

Now, both those statements are entirely true, but neither can be applied universally and the first one doesn't really contribute anything as far as whether or not immigration needs to be reformed or what direction that reform should be in.

 

 
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Matthew WilsonTrust me i read the same sites.I have a Master's in Applied Politics. I get to see through the spin both Left and Right that tend to be put on news stories.09/30/2014 - 1:02am
WymorenceI also have an extremely hard time in listening to people who froth at the mouth when the POTUS does something almost identical to the previous POTUS, but for some reason is subhuman for it this time around09/30/2014 - 12:43am
WymorenceThe problem is that opposing views are a good thing, but sites like Brietbart and their ilk are the exact opposite. 9/10 times they tweak the news to benefit their own views instead of just giving their own side of it.09/30/2014 - 12:41am
james_fudgeIf I were in a cult I might try and shut myself away from opposing views...09/29/2014 - 11:48pm
james_fudgeoh and Nate Silver and Politico too.09/29/2014 - 11:48pm
james_fudgeI read a lot of sites every day, Drudge, Breitbart, Huffpo, DailKOS, Red State, Fox, MSNBC, CNN and i'm not infected. Time for people to get thicker skins.09/29/2014 - 11:46pm
james_fudgeNeo_DrKefka: you do know you visited "one of those sites" when you posted that article, right?09/29/2014 - 11:44pm
E. Zachary KnightOcarina of Time done up in the Link to the Past engine? You know I would buy this day one if it were official. http://kotaku.com/fans-are-remaking-ocarina-of-time-in-2d-164059481909/29/2014 - 11:14pm
MaskedPixelantehttps://twitter.com/raymond03155046/status/516735796754522113 "We're fundraising for the group who helped our pets out in their time of need." "lol ur just doing this for the money get over your cat."09/29/2014 - 9:26pm
MechaTama31https://www.humblebundle.com/store/p/dontmove_storefront <-- This looks like it might be the most incredible dollar I'll ever spend.09/29/2014 - 9:12pm
Matthew WilsonI agree. the same for MSNBC as well. both of them can go away, but like it or not its a free market and fox news make allot of money sadly.09/29/2014 - 7:46pm
quiknkoldI'm an independent voter. Vote Blue and Red. so I dont really visit any specific news sites(Though I know FoxNews can take a flying leap off a bridge)09/29/2014 - 7:02pm
quiknkoldFactcheck.org. there you go. neither left or right. straight down the center.09/29/2014 - 7:01pm
Craig R.When a website's tinfoil isn't enough, add your own!09/29/2014 - 6:32pm
Andrew EisenWe used to have a reader who constantly posted DailyKOS articles in the Shout box. I was amazed, not so much by the amazing and horrifically disingenuous spin the site put on these articles, but that our reader would add his own spin on top of it!09/29/2014 - 6:05pm
E. Zachary KnightYou do realize that DailyKOS is the Brietbart of the left wing agenda, right?09/29/2014 - 6:01pm
quiknkoldproblem with Breibart is, despite I totally agreeing with Nero's articles.....its freaking Breibart. Its not the best place int he world when it comes to trust. if DailyKos or think progress reported it....well...things would be better. but here we are.09/29/2014 - 6:00pm
Neo_DrKefkaAt this point I need to stop visiting certain sites. At least now I have a list of people and where they work where I need to avoid http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/21/GameJournoPros-we-reveal-every-journalist-on-the-list09/29/2014 - 5:56pm
E. Zachary KnightNeo, Where in any published accounts of the games journo pro mailing list do they call anyone "misogynists, racist, sexist and that we are horrible people"?09/29/2014 - 5:47pm
quiknkoldmy take is, try to write a nice long piece on it, post it somewhere, and then link it. something well written, siting sources.09/29/2014 - 5:42pm
 

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