Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

April 26, 2010 -

In response to last week’s story by Charleston, South Carolina’s News 2 on a 14-year old girl who started petitions against the game RapeLay, a local gamer called the station and offered a point of view on the dangers of banning any games.

While he empathized with the plight of Elena Lyons, thirty-two year old Dondi Wiggins took issue with the banning of any game, saying that gamers, “…should have the right to decide for ourselves” what to play.

Wiggins, President of a local gaming group called Lowcountry Anime and Gaming (a group that is a chapter of the Entertainment Consumer Association [ECA]), said that he personally would not play Rapelay.

Wiggins added, “I don’t think video games should be banned.  I think we as gamers should decide what we want to play as an adult.  We have free speech.”

Just a note... the Wiggins segment is flakey early on in the video, but is served up later in the broadcast problem-free.

Disclosure: Gamepolitics is a publication of the ECA.


Thanks LegendaryGamer00!


Comments

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Hmm both this follow up and the original story were pulled from the site, maybe it's standard practice to remove stories after so many days or someone saw the comments that made the station look like total idiots and deleted them. >_>

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

I would like to say that I am only just one man with an opinion, I also know that no matter what opinion I have it does not make my sentance right or wrong, and everything what I say can be taken from just experience and a little bit of thought. Sometimes when heavy with emotion, I can say the wrong things sometimes, but then I also do suspect with anyone who says that they have been raped but still try to use that experience to justify the hurt on others such as with banning a game that never had anything to do with their real horrible experience, yeah, I am often quite suspicious....

But it never makes my comment right or wrong though.

TBoneTony

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

There are so many things wrong about the rapelay controversy, it is like the news media and the government can't find any more games to blame, so they focus on this one instead.

A little bit sad if you asked me...

The only good thing is that now they are all trying to bash games that are already banned on the market, they won't be going after the games from bigger companies then.


So in any case, the news media and politicians are nothing but bullies, they pick on the little people who can't even defend themselves all because they can't get what they want from bigger opposition that have the freedom of speech on their side.

 

TBoneTony

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

9. Has anyone ever mentioned that the rapist gets killed at the end of the game?

10. Regardless of the ending of the game, I would feel that the game itself handled allot of things quite messy, from the gameplay, to the lack of an interesting story or that the story seemed to be rushed and is perhaps a really bad game to play, but then again, I don't think it should be banned, just a game to only be played on the internet and nothing else....

TBoneTony

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

2 Endings.

Ending #1 is getting stabbed, Ending #2 is getting thrown in front of a subway train.

And of course(As you said), absolutely NONE of this is, has been or ever will be mentioned by anyone reporting/saying something about/Spewing crap from their mouth.

--------------------

Making sure I retain my INSANITY

-------------------- Making sure I retain my INSANITY

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Here is my view...

1. The game is never on store shelves...

2. The game is porly made and not really fun or interesting to play.

3. We should defend such games, because if we don't then something we like might be banned too. Like the law is not a shickel, it is a sledge hammer and it does not know the difference between innocent and guilty because it is governed by the opinions of the people in power and does not care about the differences of people from a different culture.

4. Even though I don't like realistic rape in a game, I would be more offended by REAL rape by real people and fictional rape would never offend me at all because it never had any real people in it.

5. Rape has been around for a long time, why are we so worked up about a computer game and not focusing our attention on the real life rape that has been around in society for a long time.

6. We should focus on helping real people who have been raped to see things in allot more positive way and get their lives back on track, what happens to real rapists that is for the court to decide.

7. We should allow games to delve into anything they want, because allot of bad things have happened in the world and the games that are made should be able to at least talk and delve into those sorts of things, however it would also come into a factor if anyone would want to play it, so therefore delving into a heavy subject might be to the detriment of a publisher unless if they were a small indie developer who does not care because they don't have the big money to market the game.

 

8. The Japanese indie gaming industry is allot like the western indie gaming industry as much as we have the indie movies and indie music industry, they are seperate from the commercial industries because they run a smaller business and their products are not commercial, why hasn't anyone ever told these people on the news that this is only a small indie japanese game that was never commercialized at all, only in small hobby shops that specialise in adult material?

 

 

TBoneTony

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

I doubt if this girl was even raped because as we all know, girls and women can lie about being raped knowing nothing will happen to them since people always believe whatever they say and never believe anything a guy says.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

I tend to believe that too, because it would be more likely that she must have heard of the game from CNN, and then phoned the news company from NBC that is different and they could not make a story from her words unless if they had something that could be considered as news...so that is where the false information about her being raped when she was 8 or 9 would have came in.

Plus they said it was a non-family member who did this to her, but they didn't go into anymore information as if this person was either on the run or they didn't exist.

 

I would really question the behaviour of the 14 year old girl when there is a clear agenda she has got and even the agenda of the news station.

Also it is sad that the gamer that was meant to represent us kept on saying that is was a mature rated game even though it would have been clearly an AO rated game if it was ever submitted to the ESRB,

 

TBoneTony

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Do you actually read the inane shit that you post? Nothing you've said in your post gives any kind of speculation on whether or not the girl "faked" it. I mean seriously...

I tend to believe that too, because it would be more likely that she must have heard of the game from CNN, and then phoned the news company from NBC that is different and they could not make a story from her words unless if they had something that could be considered as news...so that is where the false information about her being raped when she was 8 or 9 would have came in.

What the hell are you trying to say here? I seriously cannot understand the flow of this paragraph... you're basically saying that the girl heard about Rapelay from CNN, then called NBC about it, and then they decide to make up information, and thus she was clearly faking the entire thing!? Just... what the fuck? That makes no fucking sense at all! I just... argh!

Plus they said it was a non-family member who did this to her, but they didn't go into anymore information as if this person was either on the run or they didn't exist.

What the fuck does this have to do with anything? I could give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you might be talking about the myth of stranger danger, but it's obvious you're too stupid to even think of that. So what if the rapist wasn't a non-family member? It could've been a teacher, a doctor, a babysitter--any other kind of authority that she could've trusted. And why should they go into any more information about the perp?

I would really question the behaviour of the 14 year old girl when there is a clear agenda she has got and even the agenda of the news station.

oh boy victim blaming

YES LET'S BLAME THE 14 YEAR OLD FOR BEING AN ATTENTION WHORE AND NOT THE PARENTS OF SAID 14 YEAR OLD WHO WOULD HAVE LIKELY APPROVED OF HER BEING INTERVIEWED IN THE FIRST PLACE AND THERE'S NO POSSIBLE WAY THAT THEY COULD HAVE CONVINCED HER TO GO THROUGH WITH THIS WHETHER SHE ACTUALLY WANTED TO OR NOT TO BEGIN WITH BUT NO LET'S JUST SAY THE GIRL HAS A FUCKING AGENDA TO DESTROY EVERY VIDEO GAME OUT THERE! ARGH GARGH BALRGAHFJKGAKLF

Jesus Christ, y'know what? I really think video games should be banned. Just... get rid of them all. Fuck.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

We shouldn't blame the parents for her being as you put it an attention whore. She's the one who wants the game banned so she should face the criticism for it, and you shouldn't try to use her rape to shield her from criticism.

----------------------------------------------------

Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

---------------------------------------------------- Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Using my own sarcasm against me, nice.

My point was do you honestly think that the girl planned this entire incident just so she can get some attention? Are you people that fucking deluded? There's a very, very low chance that this girl is Light Yagami in terms of planning.

Oh, and how convienent that the parents shouldn't be blamed for the girl's action in this case, but yet if this girl was to create the next Columbine you all wouldn't hestitate to point the finger at her parents for not being hard enough to keep violent games away from her. Double standards--it's how this world works I guess.

But whatever. Call her whatever you want. I'm sure this will be a rude wake up call of how prevalent rape culture is in our lovely society.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Our society?  Unless I'm mistaken this is a Japanese product which was never actually meant for sale outside of Japan.  And the only way one can generally get this product is by import.

But no.  There is a VICTIM.  We must eschew all common sense and logic to pander to teh VICTIM.  Even if it means having to go out of our way to strike out at things that had NOTHING to do with her victimization.  If the VICTIM wants you to beat up some homeless guy you better do so, or you are BLAMING TEH VICTIM!

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

*sigh*

Way to prove the point further, genius.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Oh?  You had a point?  I'm sorry I missed it through the useless rambling.  So you may want to explain just what a domestic Japanese game has to do with our supposed rape culture.  Do I think that someone put her up to this?  With the limited information that has been given my answer is: I don't know.  I'm not going to break out the pitchforks and torches without evidence.  But it works both ways.  I'm also not going to leap to her aid (as you seem to) without the very same evidence.

It just goes to show how prevalent out "victim culture" is.  Whereby we sacrifice any intelligence and logic in order to mollycoddle the victim.  Sort of like: "Will someone think of the children?" is a catch-all argument to justify ending where the person using it tries to chastise a person who is thinking when they "should" be doing apparently. 

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Who said anything about "thinking for the children?" Believe it or not, I hate that phrase as much as you do since all in all, since in the end, no one is really thinking about the children--just their own agendas.

And you are right that the game itself is made in Japan, but as evident in the majority of these comments, rape culture is clearly blantant in American society and you'd have to be in complete denial not to notice it. There's no "victim culture" as you're putting it.

In the end, I'm not sure why I'm even bothering to talk about this. In a way, I did get off topic.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Maybe instead of just assuming that everyone else is in complete denial and you are the only sane one you should do an introspective search for your problems.  Because honestly, this "rape culture" thing seems to be coming from you and you only.  And the only thing that you've given to prove this point is "these comments" not victim wanking.

Sorry, but getting raped does not give you a "get out of proving your point" free card.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

No longer on store shelves?

She must be talknig about Japan because it was never on store shelves in the US. It was never officially translated into English.

----------------------------------------------------

Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

---------------------------------------------------- Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

And that is one thing I don't understand about the bann, it is already banned and yet they want to take it further by banning it on the internet.

But to my knowlage, you can't bann something on the internet, it is like trying to force Al-Queda to take down their own website...

Then again, perhaps all this rapelay controversy is so US politicians can try to come up with a bill that would censor the internet or something like Australia is currently faced with....

and for me being an Aussie, is more the reason why I don't want to live in Australia anymore.

TBoneTony

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

 I wonder if that was edited to make the guy look bad, or if he was simply a really bad (and uninformed) spokesman.  Either way, if they wanted someone to demonstrate that gamers are poorly socialized dangers to sociaty, they found their patsy.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Both. They made the bad spokesman look even worst.

------------------------------------------------------------ My DeviantArt Page (aka DeviantCensorship): http://www.darkknightstrikes.deviantart.com

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Does the ECA have a position about this game, even when is not for sale in America?

------------------------------------------------------------ My DeviantArt Page (aka DeviantCensorship): http://www.darkknightstrikes.deviantart.com

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

The ECA is in support of free speech and all that entails. That means that such games are protected by the first amendment unless they fall under current obscenity definitions.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

agreed though some discretion should always be played when making such... games? i mean free speech or not what would happen if someone came out and made a slave trade game? no doubt it'd be banned for whatever reason, even if the slaves in game were white people ala the british during the days of the roman/greek empire. someone would be VERY fast to jump to the obvious when dealing with the term "slave trade" and there'd be more backlash against several unknown factors without even consulting information related to the product.

i mean they have movies worse off than this half the time, even tv shows.

maybe not as explicit, but either way still worse.

 

to the point though.. how do you ban a banned game?

no really, how do you ban something thats banned anyways? i really wanna know this :)

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

And slaves and elite slaves are tradable goods in EvE Online.

Nightwng2000

NW2K Software

http://www.facebook.com/nightwing2000

Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl

Nightwng2000 NW2K Software http://www.facebook.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Historical games sugar coat the issue of slavery.  BUT, one who knows real world history KNOWS that it was slaves who built the pyramids (Civilization anyone?), and did much of the various hard labor jobs of centuries past (Empire Earth anyone?  Or Rome, Total War?).  And though indentured servants weren't strictly slaves, they were still taken in ways that were similar to slavery and many were treated like slaves (many historical games that involve European royalty ignore these facts too, among other nations that had similar designs).

Nightwng2000

NW2K Software

http://www.facebook.com/nightwing2000

Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl

Nightwng2000 NW2K Software http://www.facebook.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Ummm... It's been discovered recently that it wasn't slaves that built the pyriamids, but free citizens. It was considered to of been an honor. The workers were well treated and paid for their services. I have a mild intrest in Ancient Egyptian archiology, so I tend to read/watch things about.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Yes, I've heard of the rewriting of history along those lines.  But it's nothing more than an effort to imply that the abuses that the workers faced were actually desired by them.  Many decendants of the "Masters" tend to rewrite history to eliminate the acts committed from historical record.  But while the decendants are innocent of the crimes committed, we must not ignore the atrocities that were ACTUALLY committed during that period in history.

There is much historial record that would have to be rewritten to completely eliminate the evidence of slavery during those periods.

Even ignoring the religious aspects of Moses, the historical figure and his efforts to free his people from slavery would have to be eliminated altogether.

Nightwng2000

NW2K Software

http://www.facebook.com/nightwing2000

Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl

Nightwng2000 NW2K Software http://www.facebook.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

I recently read "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" and Mark Twain made numerous comparisons between slavery and the class system of medieval Britain. It was a rather eye opening work.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Yes it is isn't it.

Hunting the shadows of the troubled dreams.

Hunting the shadows of the troubled dreams.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Realistically such a game would probably get an AO from the ESRB if it was ever submitted to them.  Which is essentially a ban since no retailer would carry it.  But if someone wanted to make a game like that and distribute it via there own channels (ie online) that is for them and their customers to decide.

===============

Chris Kimberley

===============

Chris Kimberley

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

"what would happen if someone came out and made a slave trade game?"

Depending on the game's mechanics, possibly the same thing that would happen if somebody made a game about transporting jews to Nazi extermination camps. Not all games that feature a given subject are meant to express support for that subject. I'm not saying Rapelay is that kind of game, but banning a game because of its subject matter is entering dangerous territory.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Considering Rapelay is not banned in the US and could never be banned, It won't happen.

Rapelay is just not commercially available in the US.

As for the slave trading game, I don't think it would be banned. I have played several games that feature slavery. Sure you may get some complaints but it would never reach the point of banning.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Like I said in the comments for this follow up story, Rapelay IS effectively banned in the US due our current obsenitity laws specifically 18 U.S.C. 1466A, it's illegal to own or distribute it, there's zero reason to specifically go after it for banning, it's redundant especially for a game that isn't commercially available in the US. Not to mention as someone else mentioned later, it's also been banned in Japan since last year.

 

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Is Rapelay explicit enough to be considered obscene? I've never played it, but I'm guessing it's more cartoonish than it is explict. Is that not the case?

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

It´s very explicit and I think it can be considered as obscene, but still is not real. But again, for many people, obscene is considered to be illegal/evil.

------------------------------------------------------------ My DeviantArt Page (aka DeviantCensorship): http://www.darkknightstrikes.deviantart.com

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Link below for what for18 U.S.C. 1466A says, Rapelay easily falls under it. I can't believe it's still being talked about or that so called "journalist" couldn't take ten seconds to even bother to mention this. Then again, they can't be bothered to do any research on the matter and encourage this girl for not only illegally downloading it but play it along with their showing the stupid thing on their program.

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1466A.html

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

That law is likely unconstitutional given that it's rather more restrictive than the longstanding standard of the Miller test.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

It is not unconstitutional because it is really just a definition of points 1 and 2 of the Miller test:

  • Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,
  • Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions specifically defined by applicable state law,

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Here is the Miller test in its entirety:

-Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,
- Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions[2] specifically defined by applicable state law,
- Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

You say the law isn't unconstitutional because it's just a restatement of the Miller test, but I don't think that's true. Here's the relevant section of the law:

(a)(2)(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and

(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;

Notice how section (a)(2)(B) of the law differs from the Miller test in that it's missing the words "the work, taken as a whole", so that already the law is more restrictive than the Miller test.

Notice also how section (a)(2)(A) is missing the concepts of "the average person" and "contemporary community standards", how the words "taken as a whole" are again missing, and how it refers to things like "sadistic or masochistic abuse" and "sexual intercourse" that may or may not be said to appeal to the "prurient interest". Again, the law is more restrictive than the Miller test.

Compare that to (a)(1)(A), which would render the whole of (a)(2) superfluous if it weren't intended to be more restrictive than the Miller test:

(a)(1)(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and

(B) is obscene

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

I didn't say it was a restatement of those points.  I said it defined those two points. There is a difference.

How are we to determine what is falls under the first point if we do not define what the community standard is for content that appeals to the prurient interest? How are we to determine what is patently offensive sexual conduct or excretory function if the state has not codified such in law?

What you are suggesting is that such standards should be defined post content creation. That the content must first be created and then the community decide if it is acceptable.

Those laws were created in response to the miller test to define those points.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

"I didn't say it was a restatement of those points.  I said it defined those two points. There is a difference."

What you're saying, then, is that the law attempts to define explicitly what the Miller test leaves specifically to community standards? And you think that's a point in favor of its constitutionality rather than against it?

"How are we to determine what is falls under the first point if we do not define what the community standard is for content that appeals to the prurient interest?"

The courts decide what those standards are according to the time ("contemporary") and place ("community") of the offence. It is not for the text of the law to define what an average member of the community currently thinks appeals to the prurient interest.

"How are we to determine what is patently offensive sexual conduct or excretory function if the state has not codified such in law?"

That particular section of the Miller test does explicitly refer to "applicable state law", and in that respect the law does inform the question of the Miller test's applicability. Notice, however, that the Miller test doesn't leave it up to the law to decide what is "patently offensive", but only to determine what forms of "sexual conduct or excretory functions" are covered.

"What you are suggesting is that such standards should be defined post content creation."

The standards are defined according to the local community and are those that exist at the time the content is published.

"That the content must first be created and then the community decide if it is acceptable."

Barring publication of content that hasn't even been created yet would, under most circumstances, constitute prior restraint and would therefore be unconstitutional. With very few exceptions, the courts require that something be published before it can be supressed.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Okay, I will agree that such a law could be considered to be unconstitutional.

But my understanding of the Miller test is that it is not a test on the content, but on the the laws that target the content. According to the Wiki :

The Miller test is the United States Supreme Court's test for determining whether speech or expression can be labeled obscene,

Wouldn't it be prudent to codify what has already been determined obscene? Take child pornography. According to your definition, it would be okay to make child porn until someone challenges you. But according to my definition, creating such is illegal because it has been codified prior to creation.

The Supreme Court has held that such laws are constitutional as long as they meet that standard and fall under previously defined obscenity standards. If the target of a law does not fall under those previously defined standards or meet the requirements of the miller test, it is unconstitutional.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

"Wouldn't it be prudent to codify what has already been determined obscene?"

No, because the standards of what's obscene may change with time and might not be the same across all jurisdictions.

"Take child pornography. According to your definition, it would be okay to make child porn until someone challenges you. But according to my definition, creating such is illegal because it has been codified prior to creation."

The Miller test does not apply to child pornography involving real children. Says Wikipedia:

"The court in Ferber found that child pornography, however, may be banned without first being deemed obscene under Miller for five reasons:

  1. The government has a very compelling interest in preventing the sexual exploitation of children.
  2. Distribution of visual depictions of children engaged in sexual activity is intrinsically related to the sexual abuse of children. The images serve as a permanent reminder of the abuse, and it is necessary for government to regulate the channels of distributing such images if it is to be able to eliminate the production of child pornography.
  3. Advertising and selling child pornography provides an economic motive for producing child pornography.
  4. Visual depictions of children engaged in sexual activity have negligible artistic value.
  5. Thus, holding that child pornography is outside the protection of the First Amendment is consistent with the Court's prior decisions limiting the banning of materials deemed "obscene" as the Court had previously defined it. For this reason, child pornography need not be legally obscene before being outlawed."

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Now you have me confused here. First you say that that particular law is unconstitutional pointing out that even the portions addressing child pornography do not fit the language of the Miller test (1466A(a)(1)(A), (2)(A) and (b)(1)(a), (2)(A) but now you are saying that such is constitutional.

You are also saying that such a bill is not constitutional because it does not include the language of the miller test in the (B) portions of those same sections.

Wouldn't the fact that the label obscene and lacking serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value are not defined explicitly be enough to pass constitutional muster as they would have to be defined in a court of law when a charge is made?

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

I fail to see how I'm supposed to have contradicted myself. Keep in mind that 18 U.S.C. 1466A covers more than just pornography involving actual children, as it covers also fictional depictions of non-existent children engaged in sex. The Ferber decision is a rather unusual exception to the First Amendment and isn't likely to apply to fictional depictions of fake children engaged in sex. Unless the Supreme Court eventually decides a special exception applies to virtual child pornography the same way one does to actual child pornography, it seems to me that virtual child pornography would not be deemed illegal unless it were also deemed obscene according to Miller. Because 18 U.S.C. 1466A attempts to restrict things to a greater degree than the Miller test permits, I say it would be deemed unconstitutional at least with respect to non-obscene virtual depictions of imaginary children engaged in sex.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

 Ahm, that IS how the miller test works, it is how it is always worked.  It was never designed to actually give guidance or instruction content providers on what they can and can no to.  Like JD laws, it was designed to give a catch all tool to courts when they want to punish content but have no normal legal reason to do so.

Putting definitions on the miller test completely defeats it's spirt and purpose.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

 The constituionality is difficult to predict.  While the law tries to draw on the miller test and claims to simply give definitions for it, that does not mean that it will hold up.

For instance, there was a law a while back that defined blashphomy as covered by the first point of the millar test, and it withstood several court challenges before finally being struck down (though if I recall correctly, the SC originally okayed the law and a later court struck it down)

This new extension of CP laws could go either way if it was actually taken up by the SC.  Though the fact it also covers written expression alone would probably be enough to get it struck down since traditionally books are understood to always be covered.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

never said banning, but heavy complaints that could lead to other things.

question is how long will it take for someone to notice the slave trade option in some games? let alone that its interactive?

pass that along to the right person and/or persons and all of a sudden hell breaks loose over nothing.

GoW again, the mere fact that Cole uses "mid 90's slang" automatically made him racist enough to recieve a LOT of coverage.. over what? some dated slang?

sure nothing came of it, but it doesn't take much to get people going.

 

but i was in referance to a game built ABOUT slave trade and control, not a back drop hardly there side option.

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Looking at Rapelay right now, I´d say we can wait another 4 years for a media outrage for both games you mention.

------------------------------------------------------------ My DeviantArt Page (aka DeviantCensorship): http://www.darkknightstrikes.deviantart.com

Re: Gamer Offers Counterpoint to Girl against RapeLay

Full retail game for a major console or something you'd find on Newgrounds?

 

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Andrew EisenHence the "Uh, yeah. Obviously."09/02/2014 - 12:53am
SleakerI think Nintendo has proven over the last 2 years that it doesn't.09/02/2014 - 12:31am
Andrew EisenSleaker - Uh, yeah. Obviously.09/01/2014 - 8:20pm
Sleaker@AE - exclusives do not a console business make.09/01/2014 - 8:03pm
Papa MidnightI find it disappointing that, despite the presence of a snopes article and multiple articles countering it, people are still spreading a fake news story about a "SWATter" being sentenced to X (because the number seems to keep changing) years in prison.09/01/2014 - 5:08pm
Papa MidnightAnd resulting in PC gaming continuing to be held back by developer habits09/01/2014 - 5:07pm
Papa MidnightI find it disappointing that the current gen of consoles is representative of 2009-2010 in PC gaming, and will be the bar by which games are released over the next 8 years - resulting in more years of poor PC ports (if they're ever ported)09/01/2014 - 5:06pm
Andrew EisenMeanwhile, 6 of Wii U's top 12 are exclusive: Mario 3D World, Nintendo Land, Pikmin 3, Mario Kart 8, Wonderful 101, and ZombiU. (Wind Waker HD is on the list too but I didn't count it.)09/01/2014 - 4:36pm
Andrew EisenLikewise, only two of Xbox One's top 12 are exclusive: Dead Rising 3 and Ryse: Son of Rome (if you ignore a PC release later this year).09/01/2014 - 4:34pm
Andrew EisenNot to disrespect the current gen of consoles but I find it telling that of the "12 Best Games For The PS4" (per Kotaku), only two are exclusive to the system: Infamous: Second Son and Resogun.09/01/2014 - 4:30pm
MaskedPixelantehttp://www.joystiq.com/2014/09/01/beyond-two-souls-ps4-trophies-emerge-directors-cut-reported/ MMM MMM, nothing quire like reheated last gen games to make you appreciate the 400 bucks you spent on a new console.09/01/2014 - 4:24pm
Andrew EisenThat's actually a super depressing thought, that a bunch of retweeters are taking that pic as an illustration of the actual issue instead of an example of a complete misunderstanding of it.09/01/2014 - 4:20pm
Andrew EisenObviously, the picture was created by someone who doesn't understand what the issue actually is (or, possibly, someone trying to satire said misunderstanding).09/01/2014 - 4:10pm
Papa MidnightPeople fear and attack what they do not understand.09/01/2014 - 4:04pm
Papa MidnightWell, let's not forget. Someone held their hand in a peace sign a few weeks ago and people started claiming it was a gang sign. Or a police chief displayed the hand signal of their fraternity and was accused of the same.09/01/2014 - 4:04pm
SleakerEither people don't understand that what the picture is saying is true, or the picture was created out of a misunderstanding of what sexism is.09/01/2014 - 3:52pm
Sleaker@AE ok yah that's where the kind of confusion I'm getting. Your tweet can be taken to mean two different things.09/01/2014 - 3:51pm
Andrew EisenSleaker - No. No, not even remotely. The pic attached to my tweet was not made by me; it's not a statement I'm making. It's an illustration of the complete misunderstanding of the issue my tweet is referring to.09/01/2014 - 3:13pm
Papa MidnightIn other news, Netflix states why it paid Comcast: http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/29/technology/netflix-comcast/index.html?hpt=hp_t209/01/2014 - 3:10pm
Papa MidnightAndrew Eisen: Sites like Tumblr make things seem much bigger than they are. A vocal extreme minority start complaining and things go as they do.09/01/2014 - 3:09pm
 

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