In an open letter Apple CEO Steve Jobs came out swinging yesterday, saying that his company's devices (iPhone, iPod, iPad) will not support Adobe's Flash. Jobs says that Adobe has characterized its decision to not use Flash as "being primarily business driven" because Apple wants to protect its App Store, but says his decision is based on technology issues.
He claims that Flash is not a open platform (calling them "100 percent proprietary"), drains the battery of mobile devices (decoding video in software uses too much power), has reliability, security and performance problems, and offers no support for touch devices. But the most entertaining comment was this one:
"We also know first hand that Flash is the number one reason Macs crash. We have been working with Adobe to fix these problems, but they have persisted for several years now. We don’t want to reduce the reliability and security of our iPhones, iPods and iPads by adding Flash."
To add to Adobe's aggravation, Dean Hachamovitch, Microsoft's General Manager of Internet Explorer, reiterated on Thursday its support of HTML5 and H.264 for Internet Explorer 9. Hachamovitch posted on the IE blog that HTML5 will be the "future of the web and that IE9 would only support H.264" for its video tag.
But not everyone is down on Flash; Andy Rubin, the vice president for engineering at Google (the man behind Android), told the New York Times on Thursday that Android 2.2 will "fully support" Flash.
Finally, Adobe’s CEO Shantanu Nareyen told the Wall Street Journal yesterday that, despite Apple not using Flash, plenty of other devices will:
"Smartphone companies like Google and RIM and Palm are going to be releasing versions of Flash on smartphones and tablets in the second half of the year." Narayen said, reiterating that in the case of Apple, it's not a technology decision but a business decision and one that only hurts Apple's customers."
image credit: ActivR
Comments
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
Apple products don't crash. they just work! /sarcasm.
Flash being open or not, Apple has absolutely no leg to stand on the issue and it's entirely disingenuous of Jobs to pretend otherwise.
of course, if you pay attention to Apple's marketing strategy and propaganda, you'll note they've been entirely disingenuous for years.
Here are we -- and yonder yawns the universe.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
Flash even though it is not a well developed programming language, it does still have it's uses.
The only reason why I call Falsh not well developed, is because the colossion detection is not the best, and you can't play any animations with the hit test, it only goes to the next frame and it is like (zip) you die or something like that.
Sadly for me, the only game I have ever made was a Flash game and it took me 3 years to make my character to jump. And I am still developing the game but I am more on the animation parts now and the coding is fine at the moment unless if I want to make a few more levels.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
This is an incredibly silly point to make a stand on when 90% of the apps on the stupid iCrap app store are just trying to be flash games anyways.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
WTF? Steve - Earth to Steve, are you smokin' weed with Willie again?
The pot talkin' shit to the kettle methinks. Uncle Bill needs to bitch slap Steve a little.
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Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
Being a hipocrite at it's best
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
This "open" talk is a red herring, and deeply hypocritical at that. The real reason is, of course, that it would undercut their app sales. I can't even count the number of free flash games I've played that prompt me to "buy it now for iPhone!"
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
Indeed. I'm not about to buy Crush the Castle for one platform when I can play it completely free on another.
And woe is the developer who dares write an app that does soemthign the Iphone does but better.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
I still reckon the main reason for all the attacks on flash by Apple are mainly due to the fact that flash is also a programming language of sorts.
You can code games / apps in flash, which would open up some competition to the Apple app store.
THAT is the reason for the hate coming from Apple, all Apple's complaints (while partly true in places) are all just mere excuses designed to deflect away from their actual main issue: competition.
Which leads to the funniest thing about this argument: vendor of one of the most closed / proprietary systems ever made accusing a competitor of being closed and proprietary *facepalm*
(the comparison made to MS's anti-trust suits is very much valid IMHO. i'd actually argue Apple is now far worse than MS ever was and i don't feel that the size of the company should matter in things like this. If it's wrong for MS to do it's wrong for Apple or anyone else to do also)
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
MY translation: "we don't want Adobe cutting in on our action, so we're making developers use our proprietary software instead"
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
Indeed, Apple is synonomus with 'proprietary'.
The only time 'open' and 'Apple' go together is when you are talking about 'opening your wallet wide' to pay for it.
As for flash being slow - perhaps on older hardware and MACS, but on my Windows PC, it runs just fine. Actually, it runs fine on my Linux machine too.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
Thats one of the problems device makers face getting it to work right on their device, you'd think if you are spending millions on R&D for a mobile web surfing device flash one be one of the top 10 things.
Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! CP/IP laws should not effect the daily life of common people! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
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Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
Ok, I know I am going to get hated for this, but I actually have to agree with Jobs.
Flash is a closed system. Adobe does not control what you do with the end product, but they control the VM, language, and the toolchain. Ever try to implement your own Flash VM? It is not pretty and generally not viable. It is not the equivelent of HTML or any of the other protocols since you can only produce Flash via Adobe products and can (effecivly) only run flash on another set of Adobe products which are distributed as binary blobs. When bugs happen you just sorta have to hope Adobe fixes it, if you are a market large enough to matter.
What Jobs seems to be pushing for is use of open equivelents to develop rich web apps, so distribution and toolchains that no one controls including Apple.
Having worked in an embedded enviroment, a lot of his complaints resonate with me. In our product we ended up doing something similiar, we blocked flash from the system completely because it causes too many problems in an embedded situation. It made the product slow and unstable, and customers always just ended up blaming us for Adobe's runtime which was really frustrating. When you allow Flash on an embedded platform, you are surrendering your user experince to a company that is not known for producing products for your enviroment nor are they known for fixing issues that effect non-windows enviroments in a timely manner.
I will be curoius to see how well it is pulled off for the Adroid. Google is big enough that they might just end up implementing their own flash VM, or they might twist Adobe's arm and get a special build (or perhaps even source access). Hard to say. I will wager that they will not simply be taking the stock offical VM and putting it on the devices.
And lastly, keep in mind.. like or dislike Jobs, he is not an idiot. Not supporting Flash is costing Apple serious PR issues and reducing the market for their devices, meaning thier stance is having tangible bottom line effects. You do not cut out something like this on a whim.
Though I know none of this will stop the straw men.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
The problem is flash is part of the net its a wildly used standard so you either build your device with it in mind or you do not and face the consequence. I am surprised adobe dose not sale a package for devices that vendors can then tune and optimize for their device.
Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! CP/IP laws should not effect the daily life of common people! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
I have a dream, break the chains of copy right oppression! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2011/12/31/what-is-cigital-disobedience/
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
as far as my take on it, you can't call it a web 'standard' if only one company has access to the code, it is simply widespread in use, whereas HTML can be used by anyone and has complete open access
"I am surprised adobe dose not sale a package for devices that vendors can then tune and optimize for their device."
exactly, the code is closed off to anyone else, hence not "open"
my two cents
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
*nod* and it sounds like Apple considers the consequences worth it.
As I said, having worked with Flash in an embedded device, I can believe the trade off....
Also agred that it is odd that they do not have some kind of development or customizable version that they lisence to embedded developers. Apple would probably be ok with Flash if thier developers could tinker around inside the VM and optimize for thier platform.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
Slavery is freedom
Debt is wealth
War is peace
Apple hardware is not proprietary
Flash is a standard like jpg or HTML ....my god just ban the use of java and HTML through crapple products and see what it gets you....
Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! CP/IP laws should not effect the daily life of common people! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
I have a dream, break the chains of copy right oppression! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2011/12/31/what-is-cigital-disobedience/
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
If you were going for the 1984 slogans you got one and a half right.
They're
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
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Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
Ya well its been updated, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQTJLE-UGKo
Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy! CP/IP laws should not effect the daily life of common people! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
I have a dream, break the chains of copy right oppression! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2011/12/31/what-is-cigital-disobedience/
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
hey apple flash is an open development software, unlike your macs or iphone. in all honesty all this flash hate is gwtting pathetic.
http://www.magicinkgaming.com/
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
I think his point is that flash is NOT open. Adobe does not control the distribution, but they do control the language, tools, and the VM.
The iXYZ is a closed device, but uses open protocols for its browsing.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
While they do control the language, they only control their own tools and their implementation of the runtime. The specifications for the Flash format are openly published for free by Adobe. This make it little different from many other centrally controlled standards.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
They publish a partial specification, but not the complete one, and does not taking into account the full (quirky) behavior of their own tools.
Given that there does not exist a single 3rd party implementation with 100% compatiblity, it can be argued that they still control both the production and consumption of swf files.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
"it can be argued" that Apple is much more closed than Flash, too, which is why Steve Jobs citing Flash not being "open" as a reason to not support it is asinine.
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With the first link, the chain is forged.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
I guess apple owns some sort of slave market if they can do this.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
"He claims that Flash is not a open platform (calling them "100 percent proprietary")"
This coming from the guy whos company sues people for putting their operating system on non-apple hardware.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
I thought that Steve Jobs was a very intelligent person, but now, that is thrown out the window! OMG! Apple users getting the iPad are wasting their money. & b/c it's on a Lithium battery, it will only last for what 4 hours?! While a laptop can outlast the 4 hours & stay on for 7 hours or so. That's what I was told by my technical friend. Not adding Flash to the iPad......people can't do a lot w/the iPad then. To me, imo, it's a waste of money till they come up with something better. I think it was a business decision, but also a personal decision too. This means some laptops prices will be slashed down right?
"It's better to be hated for who you are, then be loved for who you are not." - Montgomery Gentry
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
You took the words right out of my mouth. Apple has no high ground to claims of closed platforms.
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With the first link, the chain is forged.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
The iPhone itself is a closed platform. With the latest developer aggreement, it has become moreso.
Adobe doesn't require their approval before you're allowed to publish your Flash based product, but Apple requires their approval of your app.
Adobe provides several tools for creating Flash content. Apple through their latest developer aggreement forces you to use their proprietary tools.
I am really beginning to hate Apple. I was considering making iPhone games, but that is dropping off the radar quickly.
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E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
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Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
Not a very fair comparision since Adobe is neither a distribution platform nor do they produce a target device. Of course they do not 'require approval', they have no where to approve applications for. They do not have an equivelent product, even vaugly. It is a bit like saying 'Piper sucks! All of thier planes have stall speeds, but none of Ford's do!'
A closer compairsion in that case would be Apple's XCode, which you do not need Apple's permission to publish apps using. That would be closer to what Adobe's domain is, and XCode is a hell of a lot more open the Flash is.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
What's really fun is that Microsoft is getting all these anti-trust lawsuits, having to pay millions (billions?) and change their business practices, for things like including an internet browser with their OS (not for forcing it to be the only one the user can use, just for not including everyone elses browsers as well), or the same thing over their media player.
Yet Apple is allowed to do the exact same things, and more.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
You are comparing apples to oranges (Wow, what a perfect, accidental pun). The position that Apple is in today was because Apple tried the open platform concept, and Windows basically killed them. When Apple created a reliable platform, that was only possible due to having complete control over their platform.
It's like when the NES came out, and Nintendo had complete control over what games were on it. Even though Atari lost their law suit to prevent Activision from making games on the Atari 2600, Nintendo was able to do this because the industry basically crashed. Nintendo made sure that there wasn't an over saturation of bad games, and the industry grew bigger than ever before, becoming the multi-billion dollar business it is today.
So why is Microsoft not allowed to be closed? Because they practically have a monopoly, even today. I know Macs are getting a lot of attention lately, but if you look at the numbers, PCs are still selling like hot cakes. So if Microsoft prevents software onto their system, they are closing the doors to hundreds of millions of potential costumers. Especially with the web browser case, Microsoft would of basically control the internet, preventing progress and business opportunities.
Apple on the other hand holds a very small market share. There are only alive today because of the close platform decision.
In the end, the government would based on what creates the most jobs.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
Uh, the "Nintendo Seal of Approval" just meant that the developer paid Nintendo of America a fee. It in no way guaranteed the actual quality of the game. If that were true, the Angry Nintendo Nerd might never have existed.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
Games use to be worse. Believe it or not, but many companies complained that Nintendo was too tough on what was good enough. Standards has risen since then, so there are many games that don't survive the test of time like Mario or Zelda.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
"Nintendo made sure that there wasn't an over saturation of bad games"
If only that were true. There really was/is an over saturation of bad games for the NES. :)
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
From what I recall it was to prevent an over-staturation of games period more so then bad games. The atari 2600 and previous consoles had no licensing requirements so anyone could make a game for the 2600 and sell it caused more supply then demand for the games them selfs... or so I understand.
Re: Steve Jobs Might Not Like Flash
"So if Microsoft prevents software onto their system, they are closing the doors to hundreds of millions of potential costumers."
The thing about the case I pointed out, where Microsoft was sued for including Internet Explorer, is that Microsoft is not preventing other browsers to run on their OS (I am writing this on Windows 7 using Firefox).
And I'm not saying Microsoft should be allowed to be closed, I agree that that would be disasterous. And I agree with most of the anti-trust regulations that have been put into place. I'm just pointing out the double standard between Microsoft and Apple when it comes to these sorts of practices. I really don't think that not having a majority market share has anything to do with whether a company should be allowed to do these sorts of things, only with how much damage it would cause if they did.