Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

March 3, 2011 -

Minecraft creator Markus 'Notch' Persson told attendees of the GDC Indie Games Summit that the notion of piracy as being theft is incorrect.

"Piracy is not theft," said Persson during the session. "If you steal a car, the original is lost. If you copy a game, there are simply more of them in the world. There is no such thing as a 'lost sale.' Is a bad review a lost sale? What about a missed ship date?"

Persson suggested to attendees that many developers see pirates not as "inherently evil, but as potential customers." Persson also took on comments made by Nintendo’s Satoru Iwata, saying that his criticism of small and rampant mobile and social games excludes the fact that games such as Minecraft are more of a service than a one-time purchase. Persson said that games such as his creation and Angry Birds are constantly adding updates and new content and that both have incredible sales numbers.

"Treat game development as a service," he said. "Make a game last longer than a week. You can't pirate an online account."

Source: Edge by way of C&VG


Comments

Re: @AE

Agreed. Just because everyone believes something, that doesn't necessarily mean it's true. And that one's opinion fails to sway mine doesn't mean I have a one-track mind or I'm a zealot.

Most of what this conversation has been is opinions, and everyone has the right to theirs. I personally believe that piracy is theft, and unless there is hard evidence to the contrary, that's what I will continue to believe, no matter how many "if's", "ands", or "buts" are thrown at me.

Your arguments may have points, but points =/= facts.

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: @AE

What if the law dose not define it well and prefers to treat it as a cavil matter with no limits or boundaries?


I have a dream, break the chains of copy right oppression! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/cigital-disobedience/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: @AE

So your solution is to make everything involving zeroes and ones free? No charge for anything digital? Maybe I'm just not getting your point, but that's how I'm interpreting it.

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: @AE

AE is from the position of distribution is the exclusive right of the IP owner, I say that is incompatible with today's world and that profit derived from distribution is much more important of a thing to focus on rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Right and wrong are things defined by the individual and the law, and neither are free of corruption, neglect and abuse. IMO the problem is simple look at file sharing today ad you will see that most of it is run off of for profit enterprises if setup the law to go after them it makes it easier for other countries to go after not people who distribute information but rather real pirates. AE prefers the status quo, for me I see it like the civil rights movement something that must be opened and must be changed for the betterment of us all.

 

PS:We both are sticks in the “mud” :P


I have a dream, break the chains of copy right oppression! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/cigital-disobedience/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: @AE

And how is distribution of a product that belongs to the owner an issue? If it belongs to someone, it is theirs to distribute.

 

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

Re: @AE

CP/IP has this thing called a license, the end user/consumer only has the right to access what they purchased, we barely kept the right to resale used CP/IP items. The trouble with CP/IP  is it has one true owner and a psudo owner, the consumer. The psudo owner has limited rights(can't make copies,can not play in public, can not make copies and sell those copies, may resale the physical medium if the license/EULA allows it ). The CP/IP owner has unlimited rights to the IP and may do anything with it even sue dead people and grandmaws with no computer, avoid falling to public domain like the plague just cause they can.



IMO we are given enough rights and freedoms in the USA to make copies and even share them or loan them or modify the hardware we buy and use it as we see fit. (all of which is illegal in Japan BTW) But I belive that IP owners do have 1 unquestioable right and that is the right to have exclusive use of the monetary flow around their IPs distribution(even used items, make a org add 15% toi the price of all used media have that org devy it up after taking 2 or so percent off the top,hell we do it with blank media to a existent)



BTW distribution means every time that IP moves from one person/group to another person/group.


I have a dream, break the chains of copy right oppression! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/cigital-disobedience/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: @AE

Ah, the rights. First, remember that what customers purchase is only that disc and what's on it. So, he isn't a "pseudo owner". He owns what he bought. He doesn't own the CP/IP. He didn't by those rights. Not sure what you mean by "play in public". Is the owner not allowed to play it in the street? And the customer can sell the disc because it's the disc he owns. And as for sueing dead people, something of which I'm skeptical of, is irrelevant in this case anyway. We're talking about live people taking what wasn't paid for.

As for rights to day, if I remember correctly mods are legal, copying the disc isn't legal, and sharing/loaning the specific piece of product is legal as well. As for Japan, we're not talking about Japan, though that is something I must look into. And if IP owners have right to money from their product, they aren't getting money when their product is copyed without their permission.

And if distribution is the IP being moved, the only person who has the right to give it away is whoever owns the IP at the time.

 

 

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

Re: @AE

Silly observation and comparison if you ask me.  I'm not beating anyone over the head with anything.  I made one post.  I've listened to the responses of all the comments directed at me and responded in kind.  I've given reasons for thinking the way I do and further clarifications when asked and where I felt they were needed.

Just because I don't agree with a couple other commenters doesn't mean their opinion is in the majority or that I'm not listening and evaluating what they have to say.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: @AE

holy crap you think highly of yourself. 

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

These comments from Marcus are the reason i own two copies of Minecraft. The entire mission of Mojang is pure gold.

 

Oh and AE, stop stating your opinions as facts. It's getting really old.

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

If you disagree with something I've said, you know where the reply button is.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

The problem is that 'theft' has always been considered the taking of a physical thing without permission or attempt to pay. After all, if you can still point to the physical object, how can you define it as stolen?

The thing is though, would a court of law see it that way? The answer so far has been a resounding 'No'. I think you'd have a very hard time arguing this to a judge ;)

Piracy is not something I could condone, but it's not something I can see possible to control without severe erosion of personal privacy, the fact of the matter is, it truly is a world-wide problem, and we are pretty far from a world-wide solution to it, and ironically enough, the method the Industry is currently pursuing might actually be the most self-destructive.

It's true that there's a certain amount of promotional advantage to be gained from piracy, but I've always maintained that the public has a set amount of funds it is willing to spend on games, from that point outward they will seek 'other avenues' for those luxuries. Removing those avenues will not magically generate more money to spend on the games themselves, people will simply learn to do without, or you'll see a rise in Open-Source material, neither is unhealthy for anyone but the very Industry that closed those avenues in the first place. Those funds are a percentage, the more we earn, the more disposable income we have, basic economics.

I think the problem is that the law is, and always has been, about 20 years behind technology. Thing is, 20 years is a lot more now than it was 100 years ago ;) What I mean by that is that the time between the Bow and Arrow being invented and the Flintlock rifle was tens of thousands of years. The time between the first ever flight and the first man on the moon was 70 years, and the time between the emergence of the Internet and it's placement as a facet of almost every life in the developed world was around 20 years. Technology accelerates, and the Legal institution is struggling to adapt.

So, is Piracy theft? I'm actually not sure that's the question we should be asking, it sounds like self-justification "Well, I know it's wrong but it's not theft...". I think a more interesting question would be "What do you do when a large number of people are technically breaking the law without provably depriving anyone of anything?"

Hmm, sorry, that turned into a bit of an essay :/

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

Boil it down AE wants to follow the law no matter how broken or dangerous or unenforceable it is.

Again you can not limit distribution in a age where everyone can distribute an idea, so instead of going backwards by putting the genie back in the bottle by overly restricting  consumer rights and public freedoms you go after monetary flow surrounding the distribution MP3(information download) police we need not.


I have a dream, break the chains of copy right oppression! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/cigital-disobedience/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

"Boil it down AE wants to follow the law no matter how broken or dangerous or unenforceable it is."

No.  No, that's not at all what I'm saying.  You're assertion is also wrong.  I don't agree with every law.  I'm not going to go into detail but for example, the DCMA needs a rewrite.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

Now, be specific. How is it broken? Just work with me here for the sake of the discussion.

Also, this isn't about distributing an idea, since it isn't "ideas" that we're talking about.

 

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

The original copy right law is life of the creator plus 14 years before it falls into public domain so EVERYONE may use it to in order to improve us all as a society.

Well it’s now closer to 300 years and looking to get more extensions, add to it things like the DMCA that try and override your right to make a back up (may not circumvent copy protections or traffic in copy circumvention tools )and the horrible unmanned process of take downs the system has become a place where those with the most wealth can roll over the public for nearly any reason.

 I mean look at realDVD while it was a retail application who purchased CSS decryption from its licensors like DVD player makers do and even went the extra mile of adding their own DRM to it, Hollywood went nuts and sued it out of existences. Not to mention BLEEM before that. The system is a joke and will continue to be one.

 

The only way I can think of to fix it where money cannot usurp the system is expanding fair use, allow limited distribution under an absolute no monetary flow process. Basically no links or indexing can be done and try and make money without a license, search engines can be protected by trying to block obvious bad links and a simple clause that states that as long as they are not making anything from the process of primarily (more than 70% of traffic flow) linking to or indexing copy righted files in whole or part. You push more and more loopholes out the window creating a situation where you have less file sharing due to a practical ban that covers more than half the world of profiting off links/indexing,ect while allowing the common person or persons to band together and share in a smaller more fan/ enthusiast centric environment(like fan recording at concerts in the 70s/80s ) than one that’s ran by greedy nerds.   

Either that or a set in stone 15 year limit on all IP with no extensions, PEROID.

 

Copy right is founded on the ideal of distribution, so distribution is EVETYHING to the discussion of CP and IP.


I have a dream, break the chains of copy right oppression! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/cigital-disobedience/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

Well, then it seems to me that extentions are irrelevant in this case, assume that this is a legit issue. In the case of pirated games today, creators are still alive. And if history suggests anything, by the time all creators are dead, the game isn't even made anymore, and it's not stealing to make a copy of something that isn't made anymore or isn't used to make money or profit.

The fact is, what issues you do have with copyright aren't relevant in this case. That is, that taking a copy without the permission of those who made it is taking without consent, and therefore stealing.

 

 

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

"What do you do when a large number of people are technically breaking the law without provably depriving anyone of anything?"

You punish them as you would anyone who breaks the law.  And they are provably depriving someone of something.  They're depriving the owners of the money they're owed.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

Problem is that word 'proveable'

Whilst I do agree that Piracy is a crime, I suspect there are very few cases where it can be proved that the player had both the money and the will to buy the game but simply chose not to. It may be true, it may not, but it's a question of evidence.

I'm not supporting Piracy, don't get me wrong, but when a problem gets so big and so un-manageable that you face the possibility that those who aren't breaking this law could be closing in on a minority, then maybe the way the law is managed needs to be re-evaluated?

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

Ah yes. Law as punishment rather than deterrent or rehabilitation. We saw how successful that was, throughout history as well as in studies. So why change the behavior if it feel so good, no matter what the facts say.

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

again though, you're making a blanket statement that can't be true in all cases.

if i download a movie that I already own, no one has been deprived of anything. if I go to an outdoor concert and rather than pay the ticket price, sit outside the fence and listen, I've not deprived anyone of any money and not broken any laws but yet I've 'stolen' the music I heard? no. what about a financially poor kid who downloads photoshop (because he would otherwise never use it) and gains enough skills to become a great artist or purchases many more copies later in life when he's able? who's been deprived in these scenarios? there's plenty of other scenarios where theft was the obvious intent but as soon as you can invalidate one, it can't be empirical.

you can't look at this issue and say everything is black&white, it is simply too complex of an issue for that approach.

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

"if i download a movie that I already own, no one has been deprived of anything."

That one depends on a few different things.  You could be depriving the owner of the cost of the download.  It might not matter if you already own a copy of the movie.

"if I go to an outdoor concert and rather than pay the ticket price, sit outside the fence and listen, I've not deprived anyone of any money and not broken any laws but yet I've 'stolen' the music I heard?"

No, you haven't.

"what about a financially poor kid who downloads photoshop (because he would otherwise never use it) and gains enough skills to become a great artist or purchases many more copies later in life when he's able?"

Doesn't matter.  He stole it.  Sure is nice of him to buy a bunch of copies later to make up for it though.

"who's been deprived in these scenarios?"

As I said before, the people you're supposed to be paying (except the concert example).

"you can't look at this issue and say everything is black&white, it is simply too complex of an issue for that approach."

If something costs money and you take it without paying for it, you stole it.  It's that simple.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

ok now you're stretching ;)

>> You could be depriving the owner of the cost of the download.

huh? why would i pay for a download when I already own it? the example implied that I downloaded a pirate copy of the movie, not circumvented some legitimate place to download but that's beside the point anyway. in this case, it was downloaded out of pure convenience - no intent to steal and no theft took place. I guess you could say that I deprived the movie owner of a 2nd purchase but then I'd encode my DVD copy because it is unrealistic to expect everyone to re-buy everything for every device they own. currently, you are not considered as stealing when you rip a CD you own to mp3s.

>> "if I go to an outdoor concert and rather than pay the ticket price, sit outside the fence and listen, I've not deprived anyone of any money and not broken any laws but yet I've 'stolen' the music I heard?"
>> No, you haven't.

exactly, the point being that this scenario is no different than me listening to a song i downloaded, listened to and then deleted. as soon as a file is involved, it is stealing? but when it is air vibrations involved, it is not? hmmm

>> Doesn't matter.  He stole it.  Sure is nice of him to buy a bunch of copies later to make up for it though.

he did 'steal' it but no one was deprived money because there was no money to spend to begin with. buying copies later in life was not meant as a repentant move but rather he became a professional that puts much more money into the industry than if he grew up to be a janitor. there is a net gain here, not deprivation.

please understand that I am not saying you're wrong in all cases, I'm saying you're not right in all cases.

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

 >>"exactly, the point being that this scenario is no different than me listening to a song i downloaded, listened to and then deleted. as soon as a file is involved, it is stealing? but when it is air vibrations involved, it is not? hmmm"

I don't think its the same... with the concert your not paying to listen to the music so much as you are paying for a seat in the concert hall. 

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

the seats are the product of the venue owner.
the music is the product of the band.
so it depends on who you ask.

the venue owner probably won't consider it stealing but the band will since music is their only product. of course not all bands will consider it stealing but that's another discussion.

but the point is that the person who didn't buy a ticket but still heard the concert is just like a downloader who listens to and deletes the file, the analogy being that the person only has memories of the music afterward. believe me, if someone figures out how to charge us all for breathing air (outside of space travel, scuba and an iron lung), they will.

 

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

As I said, the DVD thing depends on a few different things.

"as soon as a file is involved, it is stealing?"

Yes, as soon as you actually steal something, it's stealing.  Hearing it on the radio, outside a concert, or on someone else's music player is not stealing.  Stealing the music file is stealing.  Doesn't matter if you delete it after you listen to it.

"he did 'steal' it but no one was deprived money because there was no money to spend to begin with."

Yes, the owner of the software was deprived of the money he/she was rightfully owed for the use of the software.  Not having the money to pay for something doesn't make it okay to take it.  Becoming a boon to the industry as a direct result of stealing a piece of software does not change the fact that he stole a piece of software or make it okay.

"please understand that I am not saying you're wrong in all cases, I'm saying you're not right in all cases."

That's fine.  What do you think I'm wrong about and why?

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

That's fine.  What do you think I'm wrong about and why?

Well maybe your not wrong but the real question is did anyone get hurt. Even if something was downloaded without paying no money was lost as well. No harm was really done. But what it might do is make a potential customer. Piracy might be stealing but it might do more good then harm in the long run.

Take me, I download music all the time without paying. I do that to see if i like the music. For example, I downloaded a song from limewire called Crystal Blue Persuasion, I loved the song but never heard of the the signer before, So i looked him up and downloaded more of his music to see if i liked more of his songs or if that was just the only one. Turns out i love all his music, I am now a fan and i am going to see him live in June AND July. I have bought his CD's and his book. But i would never have known about him if it was not for piracy. I use torrents and P2P to download tons of music so i can find a lot more music i like that i never knew about. Cant use the radio anymore with the crap they play nowadays. By the way this was not just a one time thing, I have found many i support because of this.

Did i steal ok maybe but should i go to jail or be sued for all i have? I say no, What go would that do?

piracy has done more good then harm, Every uploader i know tells those downloading if they like the Music/Book/Movie/Etc, Then go and buy it to support the owner. But if you hate it save your money to buy from someone who you support and things they make that you enjoy.

If you make a good product then you don't have to worry, If people enjoy it they will buy it, If its crap or you screw over your customers, Well no money for you, And that's how you learn.

 

This is how i really see it. Yes not all will pay it back but many like me do.

Oh and the signer is called Tommy James check him out. SEE i even spread the word and tell others to listen to his music, So more potential customers for him thanks to me having downloaded his music. Also Tommy James would support this to. Just the kinda guy he is.

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

Well, good for Tommy James!  Darn shame about all those people you stole from and didn't like enough to support though.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

So i should just throw my money away on cds on the off chance ill like it.

Like i said i download to see if i like it.

You just have no real reply do you? No one lost money. No harm was done but i guess you cant see that. So how is it a shame? That i don't support crap.

All you have done is dismissed all i said.

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

"So i should just throw my money away on cds on the off chance ill like it?"

Not necessarily.  Find free samples (Borders for example).  Read reviews.  Borrow a friend's.  Buy a single for a buck on iTunes.  Plenty of ways legitimate ways to sample stuff.

"Like i said i download to see if i like it."

Doesn't mean you're not stealing it.

"No one lost money."

The people you didn't pay for the music you stole lost money.

"No harm was done..."

Wouldn't matter even if that was true.  It's still stealing.

"So how is it a shame?"

Because the sellers were gypped the money they're owed.  I'm not saying I'm going to lose sleep over it or the Earth is going to spin out of orbit and crash into the Sun but it's still a shame.

"All you have done is dismissed all i said."

I read what you said and responded in kind.  I could have gone point by point but I thought I summed it up rather nicely.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

the "DVD thing" depends only on whether you own a legitimate copy. if I have an mp3 or avi file of a DVD or CD that I own (whether I ripped it or not), I am not considered as having stolen anything by current copyright law, it doesn't matter how I got them. this has been brought up before regarding software like when software comes with a hardware dongle to activate/use - downloading and using cracks to circumvent DRM for software that you legitimately own is considered fair use because too many legitimate users were having trouble. Fair use also allows me to have copies of CDs and DVDs that I legitimately own. this point is actually black&white: it's not theft to own a DVD you paid for and an avi of that DVD that you didn't pay for.

>> Yes, as soon as you actually steal something, it's stealing.

so you're saying the theft is dependant on the existence of a file? so if tech evolves to do away with files then it's not stealing anymore? you need something more solid than that. and listening to a concert from outside the fence is still stealing "something", no? by your reasoning, listening to that concert from outside should be considered theft along with all other cases. can't have it both ways. but don't misunderstand me here, I think an argument exists that the outsider listener stole the concert but I was trying to point out that no one actually considers that, even you.

>> Not having the money to pay for something doesn't make it okay to take it.

i didn't say that it's ok, that wasn't my point but now that you bring it up, Robin Hood is considered a thief AND a hero (a hero because of his thieving, no less) because we all collectively consider that his actions were justified enough to not only overshadow the crime but to make everyone reconsider if a crime even took place and is therefore absolved and even celebrated. similar scenario here.

the only point here being that it's not simple. I mean if you can't even make a blanket statement like 'being a thief is bad', then how can you possibly say that 'all copying is theft'?

like my other response to you above, shakespeare would not have been allowed to write King Lear under current copyright law. that means the law is broken because it is depriving us of great works. to base your opinion on this broken law is like building a house on a bad foundation. and this IS opinion, which is always anything but simple, cut-n-dry, black&white.... this is my only point, not that piracy isn't theft, it just isn't theft in all cases.

>> That's fine.  What do you think I'm wrong about and why?

no, no, I specifically said that i don't think you're wrong. I said that your opinion that piracy is always theft is just not always true. big difference.

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

The DVD thing.  I’m leaving myself some wiggle room with a few extenuating circumstances but basically, yes, making a personal copy of something you legitimately own is within a consumer’s rights.

“so you're saying the theft is dependant on the existence of a file?”

No, I’m saying theft is dependent on stealing something.  Just hearing something doesn’t constitute theft (at least not in the example you’ve provided).

“and listening to a concert from outside the fence is still stealing "something", no?”

No.

by your reasoning, listening to that concert from outside should be considered theft along with all other cases.  can't have it both ways.

Exactly how many times do I have to say that’s not an example of stealing?

“the only point here being that it's not simple. I mean if you can't even make a blanket statement like 'being a thief is bad', then how can you possibly say that 'all copying is theft'?”

Did I say all copying is theft?  No. I said piracy (in the sense of illegally downloading a video game) is theft.

“like my other response to you above, shakespeare would not have been allowed to write King Lear under current copyright law.”

From what I’ve seen, I very much disagree.

“that means the law is broken because it is depriving us of great works.”

No, it isn’t for the same reason I listed earlier.

“this is my only point, not that piracy isn't theft, it just isn't theft in all cases.”

I’m open to that.  Can you provide an example (and let’s stick to the illegal download of video games)?

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

>> I’m leaving myself some wiggle room

umm, you're the one making blanket statements. it only takes one untrue scenario to render any blanket statement invalid. you say: "copying without permission is theft". the DVD example above disproves that statement. if I own a DVD, it is not considered theft if I download an avi of that DVD without permission (say using bittorrent as example). period. blanket statement invalidated. do I disagree with your statement in a very general sense? no but that was never the point of my post. do i agree with the spirit of your statement? no because of the King Lear example. current copyright law is broken, that is my opinion. your opinion is that the law is not broken. good for you. good for me. however...

your dodging and thoughtless one-sentence dismissals are indicative of a lack of respect and trolling, I don't have time to feed trolls, sorry. but it seems there's lots of others on here with enough energy to throw you some scraps.

I would only suggest that you lower your level of pretentiousness - I'm sorry but I don't think you're more of an authority/expert than Groklaw. yes, you most certainly have disagreed directly with Groklaw regarding King Lear at least twice on this page despite your strange claim that you didn't - which you tried to prove by saying you haven't read the King Lear sources... huh? non-sequitur much?

good luck and kind regards! :)

 

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

Seriously, such a monochromatic view must be hard to keep from time to time... Don't you see the grayscales from time to time? Dream in colors, perhaps?

--EDIT--

Wow, nice. This was in reply to one of AE's post. Either I replied badly or the post was removed...

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

I purchased Minecraft during Alpha. And I don't pay for any of that DRM'd mainstream crap. I couldn't not give the guy money - he was doing absolutely everything right.

He said on his blog that the speech your article is referring to was "stumbled through" http://notch.tumblr.com/post/3597265965/halfway-through-gdc-heres-what-weve-done

He did a great job on the article "How Piracy Works" http://notch.tumblr.com/post/1121596044/how-piracy-works

 

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

I equate game piracy with sneaking into a band concert without paying for a ticket, the product is still out there, and you didn't take anything, but you can't deny the fact that if everyone who attended the concert snuck in, then it wouldn't be possible for that band to be successful.

If I made a game, I'd like to sell it if I'm trying to run a business not a charity. Not every company turning a profit has to be "the man."

-Austin from Oregon

Feel free to check out my blog.

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

Seats at a concert or seminar are a scarce good and have a real impact on demand. There is a finite amount of space. There can be as many copies of a game as there are people willing to copy it. Your comparison doesn't apply.

-Greevar

-Greevar

"Paste superficially profound, but utterly meaningless quotation here."

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

Actually, the tickets represent the limited number of seats, and, in some cases, the limited number of SRO area, available.  The value of the ticket may represent the value of the artists performing, but there are still a limited number of seats/SRO area available.  Much in the same way a publisher orders a limited number of hard copy (DVD/CD, books, Video tape, etc) produced in the first printing (ie first show of the concert).  If the sales of the initial product are strong, a potential second printing (ie second show or held over for another night) occurs with yet another limited number made available.

Nightwng2000

NW2K Software

http://www.facebook.com/nightwing2000

Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl

Nightwng2000 NW2K Software http://www.facebook.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

Piracy may not legally be theft but it's certain akin to it.

Notch is certainly entitled to his opinion but I would hope even he would admit that his circumstances are a fluke. He's made a zillion dollars from a game that's nowhere near done and won't be for quite some time (and many wonder if he'll even fulfill his promises for Minecraft since he's already announced his next game.) If he was like the 99% of indie developers who struggle to put food on their table while seeing thousands of entitled idiots playing their content for free because they feel they don't have to buy things (as long as they can steal them anonymously from behind a screen of course), I think his tune might possibly be different.

Parallax Abstraction
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Parallax Abstraction
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

"If he was like the 99% of indie developers who struggle to put food on their table while seeing thousands of entitled idiots playing their content for free because they feel they don't have to buy things (as long as they can steal them anonymously from behind a screen of course), I think his tune might possibly be different."

This is why you get nowhere. You refuse to ignore your moral objections and actually look into the real reasons this system has failed to meet your expectations. You'll get nowhere fast copping the attitude that they're thieving assholes that deserve to be abused and insulted publicly. All that accomplishes is to further entrench them on their position and shuts them off from taking you seriously. When was the last time someone who was being an ass to your face actually convinced you to consider their opinion?

-Greevar

-Greevar

"Paste superficially profound, but utterly meaningless quotation here."

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

Then get a real job, piracy is a non sequencer. You are a small unheard of fish in a planet sized ocean. Hard work is one part of the equation luck is another, if the public dose not take to your IP you are sht out of luck no matter what. You can pretend that its a lost sale but that's just being dumb and disingenuous.



Again follow the money and act on it close down the current file sharing industry be making rules and laws that DO NOT INFRINGE ON THE RIGHTS OF AND FREEDOMS OF THE PUBLIC. You do this by making profit or the attempts there of the crime not mere distrobusion which in and of itself to vague and too difficult to enforce. You follow the profit links and end bootleging from links and indexing and you drastically change things so as the public and IP owners are protected evenly.



I have a dream, break the chains of copy right oppression! http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/cigital-disobedience/


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

but wasn't that his point? he was telling games devs that his model and approach effectively defeats piracy since those who pirate it will not be able to get the copious updates he's pushing out - your pirate copy doesn't 'evolve' like a paid version. same with MMO's or any of the online verification/phone-home/hosted models.

he's providing a solution to all the whining and belly-aching - he seems to be as sick of it as the rest of us.

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

lots of people don't consider piracy as defacto theft and I'm including content creators:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qkyt1wXNlI&feature=player_embedded

in fact, you could probably say with quite a bit of certainty that there as as many sales 'gained' as 'lost' as Neil Gaiman points out that the pirated content is more effective advertisement than getting something for nothing - he says it much better than I can. theft and piracy in terms of software has a lot of nuanced points nestled within that many like to steamroll over but that doesn't make them non-existent. piracy, in terms of software, is not defacto theft. what if I own a DVD movie but is faster for me to download a pirated copy that is already encoded to .avi (or whatever) than it is for me to encode it myself? this is in no way shape or form a lost sale or theft even though it was technically pirated - I'm only guilty of wanting to save time in this case. the industry could fix all these problems by understanding the nuances but they don't want to because it takes creativity and vision, both of which are in short supply when it comes to these distribution companies. there's simply too much nuance to the issue for any blanket statements from either side of the argument.

and how much is really lost even if you can quantify piracy in terms of lost sales? the movie industry just had yet another record-breaking year despite their angry rhetoric that jobs are lost (incorrect) and that sales are plummeting (also incorrect). they can't seem to explain the paradox so they avoid it.

oh and before you call me out for complaining without providing a solution, here you go - very well written and well thought out solution ideas that the RIAA and MPAA and software DEVs won't like but as soon as the money starts flowing in, will love it (look what happened with the TV Execs and DVRs, they now 'believe'):

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/02/28/piracy-is-the-future.html

 

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

"Piracy is not theft," said Persson during the session. "If you steal a car, the original is lost. If you copy a game, there are simply more of them in the world.

That doesn't mean piracy isn't theft.  If you take something that doesn't belong to you without its owner's permission, it's stealing.  Theft is very simply: the act of stealing.  The definition does not require the stolen item be a physical object permanently removed from its owner's possesion.

There is no such thing as a 'lost sale.'

Uh, yes there is.  "I was going to buy that game but now I'm not."  There you go, lost sale.

Snark aside, I'm sure he means "pirated game doesn't equal lost sale."  And from a certain point of view, that's true.  But so what?  Whether there was ever an intent to buy has no bearing on the fact that there is now money owed.

"Is a bad review a lost sale?"

No but it certainly could lead to a lost sale.  Same thing with a missed ship date.  Not sure what the point behind that one was.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

A note to anyone arguing: "PIRACY IS THEFT"

...bear in mind that you will instantly be associated with the kind people who
would even consider suing a store-owner humming while she is working...
(Note: It took nothing short of a public outrage and a lot of bad-will before
the "copyright-holder" finally dropped their charges.)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_central/8317952.stm

...which is rather sad, because the point isn't that copying is theft, but that
it is immoral from many perspectives. By acknowledging this, you may even
start a discussion which may lead somewhere productive, instead of getting
bogged down in the semantical travesty of whether Jesus was stealing when
he made copies of the fish & wine that fed a thousand people. Because the
"market" lost revenue for a thousand fish and a thousand bottles of wine...


 

 

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

"That doesn't mean piracy isn't theft"

Actually, yes, it does. I don't get what you don't understand about the fact that digital piracy does not fall under the definition of theft. It is like there is some hole in your brain that does not allow you to retain this fact. The legal definition of theft does not apply here. You are not stealing when you make a copy. You are violating a very specific and artificial type of law, copyright, namely the enforced right to be the only entity allowed to copy and distribute a given work. It is VERY different from theft. Why can't you understand that?

I'm not saying that there is not a moral argument to make against violating copyright but it is not even like theft. I know you want to pretend that copyright is some sort of natural right of man, some god given right like the right to freedom but the truth is that copyright has only existed as a legal concept for a relatively short period in human history and many believe it shouldn't exist at all. Whether or not I agree with that viewpoint (I don't) it is definitely a valid viewpoint to take. The sad thing about what you are doing when you perpetuate this lie is that by seemingly making the piracy argument simple, ie. piracy=theft, theft=wrong, ergo piracy=wrong, you are actually serving to obfuscate the matter.

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

 Theft is physical property, and an integral part of theft is depriving the owner of that property. When you make a copy of intellectual property, you have committed infringement, not theft. 

The definition of theft DOES require that a physical object be permanently removed from the owner's possession:

"In criminal lawtheft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. "

"The actus reus of theft is usually defined as an unauthorized taking, keeping or using of another's property which must be accompanied by a mens rea ofdishonesty and/or the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft

Please note the use of the words "taking", "property", "keeping", and "intent to permanently deprive". The infringement of intellectual property rights meets none of these requirements, which is why it is called infringement (a civil matter) and not theft (a criminal one). The industry and its lobbyists continue to use the word "theft" to attempt to criminalize unauthorized copying and conflate infringement of copyright with theft of property, but the two are absolutely distinct and separate.

Regarding the lost sale: these do not necessarily exist 1:1 with infringed copies, because while a person who makes an unauthorized copy now no longer needs to purchase the game in order to consume it, preventing that person from making an unauthorized copy does not guarantee or necessitate that the attempted infringer make a legitimate purchase. However, this is how the companies report "lost sales", by assuming that every illegal downloader would have purchased a legitimate copy, if only ISPs would help them prosecute their own clients, or if only DRM methods were perfect.

 

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

 Also from wikipedia:

"Property is any physical or intangible entity that is owned by a person or jointly by a group of people."

"property" does not have to be a physical object... and an intangible entity that is stolen is not necessarily deprived from the owner's possession; That is probably why the first line you quoted excludes the element of "depriving the owner"... and note how the second quote uses the term "Usually" as in "not always". As far as i see, the first definition you quoted is the rawest definition of theft (one that excludes depriving property) where as the second is more of a common interpretation that may not always be true. 

 

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

True enough, but no right of property is applied to protected works. The copyright is the property, not the thing it protects.

-Greevar

-Greevar

"Paste superficially profound, but utterly meaningless quotation here."

Re: Minecraft Creator: Piracy Isn't Theft

Well, that is part of the question... is a copy theft or not?  The answer is not clear since theft is a word that predates the concept of intellectual property and we, as a society, have not decided if it applies to situations where you are not depriving the original owner of use.

And technically, it is not theft, at least from a legal perspective.

 
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james_fudgeI'm a huge Dark Souls fan :)09/16/2014 - 1:13pm
james_fudgeThe first part of Dark Souls is pretty easy.09/16/2014 - 1:13pm
Neeneko@AE - it is still better then Return of Kings. I wonder if they know each other...09/16/2014 - 1:05pm
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Michael ChandraI was wondering the same thing while reading it.09/16/2014 - 11:44am
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james_fudgehis readers are.09/16/2014 - 10:36am
IanCWikileaks will jump on any agenda for publicity.09/16/2014 - 10:22am
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ZippyDSMleeSo gamer gate will be know as the time all the 13 year old sexist racists assholes came out of the wood work and attacked anything with more brains than themsevles. 0_o09/16/2014 - 9:09am
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james_fudgeme either.09/16/2014 - 8:54am
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