Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

March 28, 2011 -

How could Fox News resist attacking Duke Nukem Forever? After all it's a game aching to court controversy - for reasons real or imagined. Fox News writers Jeremy A. Kaplan and Patrick Manning get together to take Gearbox to task for the multiplayer mode of the game, "Capture the Babe." They open by describing the multiplayer mode:

"A new videogame that requires you to abduct women and give them a "reassuring slap" if they freak out has gamers and women's rights-groups crying foul. Brace yourself for the awfully sexist world of Duke Nukem Forever."

Brace yourself for comments from people who know nothing about the game, save the ten minutes of video they found on YouTube:

"It was offensive then and it's even more offensive now," Jamia Wilson, vice president of the Women's Media Center, told FoxNews.com. She is referring to the 1996 game from 3DRealms as well. "These depictions of women are extremely harmful, especially to young women," she added.

How are they harmful? She does not elaborate, but I suspect she believes that men will get together to recreate this game in real life. As ludicrous as that sounds, what she really believes based on cursory research of the game is probably far worse: that somehow this kind of in-game activity has some sort of real-world consequence. At least she did not say it causes rape..

OXM describes the mode as more goofy than offensive. As the ESRB points out to Fox News, the game is rated "M" for "Mature."

"This game carries a Mature rating indicating that it’s intended for ages 17 and up, and retailers overwhelmingly enforce their store policies requiring that M-rated games not be sold to a customer under that age without a parent’s consent,” said Eliot Mizrachi, a spokesman for the ESRB.

In the article that appeared in OXM, Gearbox Software's Randy Pitchford defended the new mode:

"Our goal isn't to shock people, but I think there's some stuff that'll be just a bit uncomfortable," he said. "We try to get right up to that edge and then relax enough so people don't reject it."

Read the whole article here.


Comments

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

I had this long piece written up about it being Duke and you being shallow if it changes you blah blah blah... then I realized Im posting on an article that Fox News influenced and I realized WTF .... why am I wasting so much time on an article written about a group that's entire purpose is to make up controversy.  Case Closed still buying the game don't care if Fox thinks that makes me a mysiognist.

 

 

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

 

So its ok to be openly gay and parade around town making out in public, and if I say anything about that, I'm a monster.
Its also ok for teens to hook up and have sex as long as they're using protection according to planned parenthood. Abortions are also ok and isn't extremely harmful to young women...

But now people are concerned a video-game will turn boys into women abusers and young girls into strippers?? 

"These depictions of women are extremely harmful, especially to young women,"
This game isn't made for young women you moron. 

"A new video-game that requires you to abduct women and give them a "reassuring slap" if they freak out has gamers and women's rights-groups crying foul...
How many movies have we seen where a girl [or guy] freaking out gets slapped so she'll snap out of it? No one ever complained about that.. Because its just a movie.

Seriously Fox and company, stick with covering politics. There's more than enough dirt there for you to cover without having to nag about what some "group" thinks about a videogame..
And Jamia Wilson, go nag to Playboy and the rest of the porn industry. They do way more harm to young women than a video-game could ever try to do. 
I'm sick and tired of everyone getting offended by the stupidest things and making it into political bullshit

 

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Want to know what's vastly more harmful to young women than Duke Nukem Forever or the entire Porn Industry could ever manage?

The fashion industry: Making money off making you feel bad about your body since... well... since it's been an industry.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

(wrong comment)

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

It's just another classic case of people outside the target audience not understanding the satire. People who play Duke Nukem games get it. People who don't play the games just take it all at face value. This happens in a variety of media, and I doubt there will ever be a case where everyone just gets it.

The fact of the matter is, the sexism and machismo are the whole point of the character. It's not intended to be taken seriously by anyone, it's all very tongue-in-cheek, and frankly I can't imagine what type of young girl would base her own body image on that of a damsel in distress being slapped around by Duke Nukem. Action hero satire has always been the point of Duke Nukem, and it always will be. But thanks to FoxNews for selling a few more copies. How long til they start demanding a cut of the profits on these games?

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

THANK YOU!

The people complaining about Duke Nuken in this topic are either too young to remember him or too moraly hypocritical to understand this. This is DUKE NUKEM. He is a pure satire of the Testosterone driven, ego powered, machismo induced action hero. He is a blend of Stalone, Schwarzenegger, Eastwood and every other popular action hero icon out there. He is as politicaly incorrect as a fart inside an elevator. If you are looking for something deep or more mature you are barking at the wrong tree. Duke Nuken has always been a juvenile game and should not be take seriously in any way, shape or form.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Notice that media has moved away from those pulp action hero movies.  If you tried to make one today it would probably recieve similiar responses.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

You mean like the fact that Stallone has revived his career with another Rambo, another Rocky, and THEN making The Expendables?

"Similiar responses" indeed: they were all rather successful at the box office.

Yet, for some reason video games are treated differently. So, let's call out the hypocrisy of the media, rather than the game.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

If you make one such movie like that today the reponse would be the same as 13 years ago, People would flock to see the movies and moraly bankrupt hypocrites would cry foul over it just like it in the past. The only difference is that in this age of media overload cheap and spineless vultures like Fox News would make a story about it just for the sake of raitings. Add a quack who dares to call itself an "expert" or "analyst" and  start spewing whatever garbage he/she can possibly think of and WHAM you got a controversy. There is literaly no difference aside from the fact that the media gives more air time to these losers.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

For me, this touches on what will be the deciding element... is it satire, or did the developers take themselves seriously?

If it is satire then I think this could be a great thing.  If the developers took themselves seriously then I think it was,. well, not so great.  So far what I have seen in interviews and such sound like the later, which is why it concerns me.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

The only time the developers took themselves seriously is during the creation of the game when 3DRealms was looking to create the most graphicaly advanced game causing it to be delayed for almost 11 years. Aside from that there is nothing else to take seriously about this game. Like Fox News you are making a mountain out of a mole hole

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

No, I am making a mole hill out of a mole hill. 

Crow, I am starting to see why people do not like debating with us.... too many posters turn the slightest criticism of a game into a big deal.  You know what, all media has criticisms about its content and the total effect is has on building identity in society.  Games are not special, they are not immune, and if we want them to take their rightful place besides film and books, we have to be prepared to be treated like them.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

And now I must thank you for better expressing my point.

 

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

First thing in the morning for me, but I can't help but wonder:

1. What's the difference between this and, say, Overlord 2 (where there's a capture the maiden game) or Fat Princess (where you have to rescue your princess before she gets too fat to move)? Both involve 'ABDUCTION' yet are tongue-in-cheek and silly.

2. If there was a female player character involved (as advertised in Ye Olde Duke Nukem Forever - an equivalent of Duke), would this still be sexist?

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

For number 1, the answer is simple: Name recognition. Fox didn't attack Overlord 2 or Fat Princess because there wasn't much in the way of marketing. DNF on the other hand has been marketed for over a decade in various forms and the furor that it's actually going to be released is everywhere.

Put simply, Overlord 2 and Fat Princess (though there was some minor controversy on it) are relatively unknown, while The only way Duke could be missed would be if you were intentionally avoiding it.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

I just find it funny that they latch on to the controversy now, when we've been able to make babes "shake it" for over ten years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Vr8GO-kg0

You wanna dance?

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

I remember that. Heh, made me laugh quite a bit. I remember a later level where you could make a geisha flash you.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

I would love to be a conservative, but these social conservatism drive me towards the other side of the political spectrum out of pure rage.  They piss me off THAT BAD

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

"How could Fox News resist attacking Duke Nukem Forever? After all it's a game aching to court controversy..."

And how could we resist attacking them back? I swear the fight between Fox News and gamers over controversy like this is just as fun as an MMOFPS!

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Change my pitch up. Smack my bitch up

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

I doubt I'll be playing this mode that much, all I am here to do is kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of gum. 

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Nono. SLAP ass. Not kick it.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Ever think that the good folks at Fox News are closet video game enthusiasts, and spend countless hours in the office holding impromptu Call of Duty tournaments? They certainly give games enough free advertisement and publicity.

But yeah, yeah. Video games are bad, blah, blah. Cat likes food. What part of this haven't we seen a million times already? And what good has it done Fox News?

"Power means nothing without honor and pride."

http://grifsgamereviews.blogspot.com My video game review site.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Wasn't there a scene in Airplane where people were forming a queue to slap a hysterical woman?

 

Edit: Yes, there was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Good work Fox, you just gave the game free advertising and just assured that younger males who aren't supposed to have this game will indeed want it and try to get it.

Also, I'm not going to cry foul because this is FICTION. And for better or for worse, this is how the Duke Nukem persona was crafted and how the over all universe was crafted, and I would dare argue that Gearbox is trying to remain true to it.

I mean seriously, people didn't raise red flags after the first trailer came out and mentioned women getting kidnapped en-masse, making them out to be helpless eye candy in the first place? I'm not saying that it's not going to be offensive, but people would complain it wasn't Dule Nukem if it wasn't offensive.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

I hate to say it, but I kinda agree with Fox's 'commenter' on this one.  This kind of stuff was borderline at the time, and would have made a great parody/mocking in a game today.. but to take it seriously?  this kind of imagery was probably better left in the dustbin of history...

We have come a long way when it comes to gender inclusive gaming, and this whole mess really reeks of 'hey guys, remember back in the day when action movies were super macho and girls were helpless eye candy! now you can relive this in a non-ironic way!'.

Which is really kinda sad since if this has been done in an ironic 'destroy all humans' kind of way it could have a blast.

Though I think what bothers me about this particular piece.. it uses a kind of straw man.  Someone points out how this imagery and stereotype can be a bad thing and the editor immediately jumps to assuming the complainer must be assuming that young males will go out and start acting out the game.  Believe it or not, yes, this kind of stuff does have real world consequences.. probably not huge from a game like this since the rest of media has moved on, but the kind of social expectations and imagery the original games were steeped in did have a real effect on women's lives and how they built their self image.

And no.... hauling out 'a female friend who disagrees' does not change this.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

This is more to those who have a problem with neeneko's comments, but since I can't really respond to three at once, I'd rather just respond to neeneko's.

First, on "real world consequences". I think gamers like us can be a bit parnoid about when someone criticizes a game, though understandably so due to the past. We think "real world consequences" and think of Jack Thompson and parents thinking of the children. In other words, we think of the idea that videogames encourage behavior from a game being mimicked, specifically crimes and immoral acts.

However, that's not what neeneko's refering to. He's refering to simple social effects. We've wanted games to be considered a viable form of art and expression. Well, that means that games, like books and film, can effect society in our perceptions. The very fact that video games are a form of media means that it does effect society, one way or another. How many memes have come from games alone? Videogames can enforce social images and concepts just like any other form of expression.

Now, some seem to think that neeneko thinks this is something to do with "being offensive". Neeneko hasn't even used the word "offensive" yet. Nor anything on censorship. And the fact is, criticism of something doesn't immediately lead to some slippery slope of censorship. The idea of forcibly doing something about it leads to censorship. We can't hinder social criticism for this reason.

 

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

I think you put that a lot better then I did.  Thankies ^_^

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

My concern about "real world effects" have more to do with how games are viewed.

People are constantly saying "you can't take it seriously, it's just a game".  Where are our games that we CAN take seriously?

Games that are rated M are rated M for iMmature do serious disservice to real world perception of games and gamers.

Don't be surprised when a game you're looking forward to gets marketed into immaturity with "you're mom's gonna hate it" type advertising.  Or worse... the content gets marketed into that realm.

I actually didn't buy Dead Space 2 because I just refused to associate myself with that market (I did enjoy the first one). 

------ Morality has always been in decline. As you get older, you notice it. When you were younger, you enjoyed it.

------- Morality has always been in decline. As you get older, you notice it. When you were younger, you enjoyed it.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Don't blame Duke Nukem. TV and movies are taken seriously yet there lots of immature things on there as well, and people accept that without acting like movies and TV can't produce anything meaningful.

So clearly the solution isn't to demand games like Duke Nukem not get made (for starters they'll keep getting made anyway).

----------------------------------------------------

Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

---------------------------------------------------- Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Ah, I forgot about that. Yes, videogames need to improve when it comes to this sort of thing. We don't even need to necessarily get rid of games like Duke Nukem, just create more games with some actual maturity. Well, that's not right either. There are games that are deeper than videgames are thought of being. So, really, it just comes down to putting more emphasis on mature themes. And of course, improve marketing. Because if EA keeps it up, we'll end up nowhere.

That said, I personally wouldn't refuse to buy a game on the basis of poor marketing, something that the developors probably couldn't control. I buy games because of their merits.

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Things is, there ARE serious games out there that don't cause controversey, but we'll never hear about them in the news, because the news is more concerned about ratings than actual information.

What's going to become a hotter topic? The game where you're forced to face the consequences of your actions, or the game involving naked women?

For an organization like fox the answer is simple, the one with the scary sexual references. And even when or if games are finally seen as a serious artistic medium, they'll just move onto something else to bash endlessly.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

I'm also inclined to ask what the harm is. I don't know if it's possible for people to take something like Duke Nukem seriously, considering how ridiculously over the top it is.

There's a number of other problems with suggesting that Duke Nukem in general or "Capture the Babe" in specific is harmful, especially without support, and that's the slippery slope toward media censorship. If we are worried about the offensive material -- and let's not kid ourselves; it's intentionally and deliberately offensive, in an homage to that 90s action hero machismo -- but just because it's 'objectionable', then what would you want the developers to do about it? It's already rated for an audience that is supposed to understand that this is offesive-for-offense's-sake material.

Ultimately, if this material is considered to be 'bad enough' that it has to be 'fixed', there's two basic solutions beyond what's already in place. We impose external censorship, or we request internal censorship. Either we let a governing body tell us what material we're allowed to make, or we try to impose a distinction between 'good' and 'bad' topics to discuss in media and socially try to enforce those distinctions.

I understand the interest of the community at large in advancing the sophistication of our media and not making stereotypes out of women. As a designer, I strive to try to make games that treat all people fairly. But that doesn't mean we can't discuss those ideas.
 

TL;DR: Duke Nukem is gonna be stupid, and it's audience is aware it's going to be stupid, and that's part of it's appeal. Sexism is bad, but what do you want to do about it, censor it?

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Could you please explain what these 'real world consequences' are? Somebody always trots out this argument without backing it up with any facts. Are you expecting to see a rise in abductions after DNF is released?

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

*shrug* ask any woman working in a male dominated field.

Ok, current example.   I am working with some engineering students, seniors.  The group is mixed male/female 2 of each.   The two girls in the group seem honestly surprised when I actually address them and ask them questions about the project.  I have noticed that neither their teammates nor my male coworkers have really been doing this.  In a few months they will be in industry and this pattern will probably continue.

Talk to anyone who studies gender relations in school or workplace and they will tell you about the effects sexism in the media has on women.

This isn't something special to DNF, this is a major piece of our media landscape.  It is something we have made incredible progress on over the last few decades,.. so I am simply saddened to see this kind of slippage.  I do not believe DNF will have any significant impact or that this one game will tip a balance or even start a trend, but as the saying goes, no single drop believes it is responsible for the flood.

I am also saddened because I believe DNF had a wonderful opportunity to poke fun at these stereotypes without reinforcing them.  Again, I point to Destroy All Humans, which pulled a lot of imagery from the paranoid McCarthy area, including it's rigid conformity.  The game included those elements and you could play with them, but it was done in such a way that you walked away thinking 'this was fun, but those were bad things'.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

So you agree with Leeland Yee and Jacko that games can mind control you into commiting real world acts?

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

No.

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

But yet it causes  "real world consequences".  Does it or doesn't it?  You can have your cake or you can eat it.  Choose.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

"real world consequence" isn't always "mind control". Your "cake" can be one, and still not the other.

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Either it causes people to act differently than the otherwise would, IE real world consequences, IE mind control, or it does not.  Still: Pick.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

No on the mind control. If you mean that videogames do create some influence on something outside of the game ie "real world consequences" in some social way, then yes, I do believe that people act in different ways than they would if there weren't videogames, then yes. But not to the extent that certain governors, sentors, or ex-lawyers would have it. IE mind control.

 

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

"If you mean that videogames do create some influence on something outside of the game ie "real world consequences" in some social way, then yes, I do believe that people act in different ways than they would if there weren't videogames, then yes."

That sounds like mind control to me.  And not really that much different than the crackjob theories put forth by senile, unemployed, disbarred Floridian lawyers.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Disbarred Flordian lawyers? Do you really want to start? Fine. First, how paranoid are you? Do I have to repeat what I said in another thread? Allow me to show you what I said before:

 

"First, on "real world consequences". I think gamers like us can be a bit parnoid about when someone criticizes a game, though understandably so due to the past. We think "real world consequences" and think of Jack Thompson and parents thinking of the children. In other words, we think of the idea that videogames encourage behavior from a game being mimicked, specifically crimes and immoral acts.

However, that's not what neeneko's refering to. He's refering to simple social effects. We've wanted games to be considered a viable form of art and expression. Well, that means that games, like books and film, can effect society in our perceptions. The very fact that video games are a form of media means that it does effect society, one way or another. How many memes have come from games alone? Videogames can enforce social images and concepts just like any other form of expression."

 

This really isn't a hard concept to undertand Videogames are a form of media, right? Media influences our society, right? Then videogames can influence society. Videogames are constantly creating memes. But you can't seem to see that. You've created a false dichotomy, that videogames don't influence society at all, or videogames must induce some sort violent or immoral act. And the irony here is the only reason of this way of thinking is from listening to those like Jack Thompson rant. What about all of those positive effects of videogames that this very site has reported on? Are those "mind control"? Shall I mention all of the memes? Social influence has happened. Vidoegames have created the subculture we currently inhabit for God's sake. Allow me to end this in the following meme: Would you kindly not be so overreactive. 

 

 

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

I already read all of that thanks.  Now tell me what is so hard to understand about this:  If Duke Nukem has "real world consequences" it can only be through manipulating people.  Manipulation of their minds.  Manipulation = controls.  Ergo what you are refering to is mind control.  I don't really see how hard that is.  If you believe this to be the case then that's fine, many people feel the same way.  All I ask is that you step on the other side of the line in the sand.  I'm sure Col. Grossman would welcome you with open arms.

Anyway, how do you know that Jacko's point hasn't been "simple social effects"?

And are you seriously fucking putting "would you kindly" a stupid thing people repeat as a joke with someone beating a woman around.  Are you serious?

How about this.  Use media to force me to change my mind on this issue.  Don't let the fact that my mind rarely changes on anything scare you away.  Go ahead, try.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

I'm bored so I'll wade into the fray.

Let's say you read an article in the newspaper about a current hot topic - climate change, gay marriage, etc. - and after reading the article you reflect on the arguments the writer made and shift your stance on the issue a little (I know you say this rarely happens but go with me here).  I wouldn't call that mind control, but as a writer I would certainly call it effective writing/communication which is what 99% of all writers strive for.

I'll keep running with the Bioshock theme: after playing it there were some gamers who paused and reflected on the themes and messages the game conveyed and possibly thought of games and/or life ever so slightly differently.  No, I don't mean they ran out and tried to kill someone with a swarm of bees, but their perspectives on objectivism, etc. might have changed a little.  Or, they might have developed an opinion of objectivism that previously didn't exist.  Regardless, there was some minute influence that got stirred in with the millions of other influences we carry around with us everyday from our upbringing to our choice of media consumption to our acquaintances to every other possible variable.

 

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

There is a massive difference between reflecting on some new information and a game causing "real world consequences".  So after playing Duke Nukem the only people who are going to slap women around are the men who slap women around.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Well, orginally I was just using the meme to just show that the meme's very existence showed videogames influenceing society, but BrazBane actually took it farther and made a good argument. Bioshock had some interesting ideological themes.

Now, Col. Grossman? Really? Well, back to the subject at hand. Look, your assuming that by "real world consequences" that we mean only extreme forms of consequences. Yet, neeneko himself said that my assessment of what he meant was accurate in a response to the post I copy-pasted earlier. In other words, when we mean "real world consequences"= "simple social effects" and "enforce socal images and concepts". And your attempt to assert that "real world consequence" can only be "mind control" also falls flat. Mind control involves a person(s) manipulating the minds of others to conform through unethical psychological techniques. The very fact that mind control involves intent and for techinques to be forceful enough to bend the will of men eliminates your idea of what. Manipulation is the same. Here's merriam webster's defintion when it comes to the type of definition we mean: "2b: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means. 3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose.". The first definition had more to do with physical acts. But nonetheless, real world consequences aren't manipulation either. And we know he didn't only refer to "simple social effects" because he specifically stated he meant thing such as increase in violence and crime. He said nothing on simple social influence that all forms of media have. Are you saying that the media is brain washing people? I doubt it.

So, let's summerize:

a. you've miscontrued what neeneko originally meant by "real world consequences" to mean something extreme. In the end, this really means that to argue that what we mean by "real world consequences" means anything other what we meant it to be is a strawman. Not only that, but a terrible and extreme defintion of such consequences.

b. neither of your definitions of such consequences as "brain washing" and "manipulation" don't stand up to scrutiny once their respective definitions come to light. 

 

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

"Look, your assuming that by "real world consequences" that we mean only extreme forms of consequences."

Well, no.  What I was actually refering to was ANY real world consequences, extreme or otherwise.

"And your attempt to assert that "real world consequence" can only be "mind control" also falls flat. Mind control involves a person(s) manipulating the minds of others to conform through unethical psychological techniques."

The accusation here does seem to point to unethical psychological techniques.  Either by playing Duke Nukem you are going to put into motion a "real world consequence" (minor or otherwise) or nott.  If you do then it has manipulated your thought process.  Let me put it another way: Do you foresee yourself slapping  around a woman after playing DNF?  Who is the captain of your cranial ship?

"a. you've miscontrued what neeneko originally meant by "real world consequences" to mean something extreme. In the end, this really means that to argue that what we mean by "real world consequences" means anything other what we meant it to be is a strawman. Not only that, but a terrible and extreme defintion of such consequences"

And what do YOU think these real world consequences would be for example?  What will playing DNF cause?

"b. neither of your definitions of such consequences as "brain washing" and "manipulation" don't stand up to scrutiny once their respective definitions come to light."

Not really.  It boils down to "Because I watched (A) I did (b).  So it is still a catalyst to cause a person to do something that they wouldn't have done without the influence of (A).  And that  seems damn controlling to me.

 

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

Wait, I think there's been a misunderstanding. I've never implied I knew how DNF would influence society. All I've been saying is that videogames can influence society socially, since it's a form of media.

Now, assuming you keep to your argument from this point on, are you really saying that basic social effects from any form of media is "unethical"? I mean, are any effects to how humans think via a medium such as books or movies really unethical. You're using terrible examples again. No, I wouldn't assume that people would slap women more for this game. Do you want me to give an assessment as to what social influence it could give? Because at this point, aside from some future videogame jokes about how long it took to make, I have no idea. I haven't played the game or seen enough gameplay to make specific assessments.

So, really, I must ask again. Is it controlling in some unethical way for forms of media to have influence on society? 

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein

Re: Fox News Takes on DNF's Capture the Babe Mode

"So, really, I must ask again. Is it controlling in some unethical way for forms of media to have influence on society?"

When/If it would directly cause the person to do something they wouldn't normally do, yes.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

 
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MechaTama31Heh. I don't think you need a master's in politics to see that... ;)09/30/2014 - 7:32am
Matthew WilsonTrust me i read the same sites.I have a Master's in Applied Politics. I get to see through the spin both Left and Right that tend to be put on news stories.09/30/2014 - 1:02am
WymorenceI also have an extremely hard time in listening to people who froth at the mouth when the POTUS does something almost identical to the previous POTUS, but for some reason is subhuman for it this time around09/30/2014 - 12:43am
WymorenceThe problem is that opposing views are a good thing, but sites like Brietbart and their ilk are the exact opposite. 9/10 times they tweak the news to benefit their own views instead of just giving their own side of it.09/30/2014 - 12:41am
james_fudgeIf I were in a cult I might try and shut myself away from opposing views...09/29/2014 - 11:48pm
james_fudgeoh and Nate Silver and Politico too.09/29/2014 - 11:48pm
james_fudgeI read a lot of sites every day, Drudge, Breitbart, Huffpo, DailKOS, Red State, Fox, MSNBC, CNN and i'm not infected. Time for people to get thicker skins.09/29/2014 - 11:46pm
james_fudgeNeo_DrKefka: you do know you visited "one of those sites" when you posted that article, right?09/29/2014 - 11:44pm
E. Zachary KnightOcarina of Time done up in the Link to the Past engine? You know I would buy this day one if it were official. http://kotaku.com/fans-are-remaking-ocarina-of-time-in-2d-164059481909/29/2014 - 11:14pm
MaskedPixelantehttps://twitter.com/raymond03155046/status/516735796754522113 "We're fundraising for the group who helped our pets out in their time of need." "lol ur just doing this for the money get over your cat."09/29/2014 - 9:26pm
MechaTama31https://www.humblebundle.com/store/p/dontmove_storefront <-- This looks like it might be the most incredible dollar I'll ever spend.09/29/2014 - 9:12pm
Matthew WilsonI agree. the same for MSNBC as well. both of them can go away, but like it or not its a free market and fox news make allot of money sadly.09/29/2014 - 7:46pm
quiknkoldI'm an independent voter. Vote Blue and Red. so I dont really visit any specific news sites(Though I know FoxNews can take a flying leap off a bridge)09/29/2014 - 7:02pm
quiknkoldFactcheck.org. there you go. neither left or right. straight down the center.09/29/2014 - 7:01pm
Craig R.When a website's tinfoil isn't enough, add your own!09/29/2014 - 6:32pm
Andrew EisenWe used to have a reader who constantly posted DailyKOS articles in the Shout box. I was amazed, not so much by the amazing and horrifically disingenuous spin the site put on these articles, but that our reader would add his own spin on top of it!09/29/2014 - 6:05pm
E. Zachary KnightYou do realize that DailyKOS is the Brietbart of the left wing agenda, right?09/29/2014 - 6:01pm
quiknkoldproblem with Breibart is, despite I totally agreeing with Nero's articles.....its freaking Breibart. Its not the best place int he world when it comes to trust. if DailyKos or think progress reported it....well...things would be better. but here we are.09/29/2014 - 6:00pm
Neo_DrKefkaAt this point I need to stop visiting certain sites. At least now I have a list of people and where they work where I need to avoid http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/21/GameJournoPros-we-reveal-every-journalist-on-the-list09/29/2014 - 5:56pm
E. Zachary KnightNeo, Where in any published accounts of the games journo pro mailing list do they call anyone "misogynists, racist, sexist and that we are horrible people"?09/29/2014 - 5:47pm
 

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