Iraq War Veterans Protest America's Army Game
Iraq War Veterans Protest America's Army Game
September 4, 2007
Even among some military veterans, support for the war in Iraq is dwindling.
As reported by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, veterans of the war gathered to protest recently at the Missouri Black Expo. The focus of their attention was a display of the America's Army video game:
America's Army was created several years ago by the Department of Defense. The PC version, a first-person shooter using simulated military weapons, is given away for free by the Army as a recruitment and public relations tool.
Here's the video of the IVAW protest:
As reported by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, veterans of the war gathered to protest recently at the Missouri Black Expo. The focus of their attention was a display of the America's Army video game:
About 90 Iraq war veterans, dressed in black shirts, stood in formation Saturday afternoon in front of military recruiters at America's Center and shouted their protest message three times: "War is not a game!"
They were referring to the large military simulation game set up by Army recruiters... The group of veterans, known as Iraq Veterans Against the War, were in St. Louis for their annual meeting this weekend when they decided to stage a brief demonstration at the Expo.
America's Army was created several years ago by the Department of Defense. The PC version, a first-person shooter using simulated military weapons, is given away for free by the Army as a recruitment and public relations tool.
Here's the video of the IVAW protest:
Comments
Watching your buddies die, and killing. These are things you have to experience to understand.
You'd be surprised the number of first person shooter games they play. I play America's Army when I get bored. While it's not a true realistic battle simulation game, it is fun and there are over 10,000,000 people world wide that play this game. It has been ranked as one of the top 10 online games every year since 2002.
BTW, those of us that play AA, play Medal of Honor, Call of Duty and others.
Personally, I've always been inclined to agree with them, that the idea of pretending that real combat is anything like a Video Game is wrong, and people who claim otherwise are doing a dis-service to those who have fought and died in Iraq and Afghanistan.
For example, the Department of Justice should release a game based on firing Prosecutors just because they won't toe your party's line. The game ends when the public and Congress gets so pissed off with your lies and question-dodging that you have to resign in shame.
Or what about games based on illegal wiretapping or setting up illegal prisons, all in the name of counter-terrorism?
According to one of the protestors in the article, the reason for the protest is the misrepresentation of military life by this game. "We want people to know the truth about military service and that it's not always what they say,"
I agree, and think that America's Army is a pretty cynical and underhanded way of trying to get young people to sign up, when as far as I know, recruitment targets are not being met. Trying to make military service seem cool when in fact it's probably one of the most difficult, and with the current political climate, dangerous jobs going.
"Dougherty said many potential recruits may not realize the consequences the prolonged war in Iraq may have on their service — increased chances of repeated deployment, extended tours of duty, a call back into war even after a contract expires and difficulty accessing benefits upon return.
"People who are considering joining the military should know the truth so they can make an informed decision," she said."
You can't make life decision based on a video game. Video games are a big part of my life but they do not effect any other aspect of my life. I could play a war game but no matter how much of a bad-ass I was made seem in the game, no matter how much they sugar coated the experience and made it seem like the right thing to do, I would never join the armed forces. Anyone who would make a decision to join the army based on a video game should really have their head examined.
Hooah! Jack Thompson (This Century's Nostradamus ;) )
That in part is why I take exception to the idea that Video Games are used to train soldiers, obviously it's partly around the fact that no game can prepare you for a real battle zone, where people you talk to and joke/argue with every day can die in horrific manners, but also the assumption that being a Soldier is ONLY about leapfrogging around a battlefield looking for things to shoot. Many soldiers in the coalition died not because they were fighting the enemy, but because they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Anyway, reading your statement, I agree, it's basically about conditions and contracts and the fact that they are glossed over during recruitment.
"I made this point on ABC World News Tonight with Peter Jennings four years ago."
You made the point that video games are in no way representative of real life? Or that you cannot train on a video game? Surely that's against everything you have been saying up til now...
I honestly believe that you failed reading comprehension when you going to school.
The 90 Iraq war veterans were protesting the war in Iraq, not the game.
Practice what you preach: Grow up and get a life.
This century's Nostradamus?
1. Aren't you a Baptist? If so, why believe in that Nostradamus crap?
2. Is that why you're so vague when you make your predictions, so that you can say, like Pat Robertson, "well, see, it was KIND OF like what I said, so I was right"?
3. You actually take Nostradamus seriously?
...
...!
Hey. You ARE this century's Nostradamus! A fear-mongering, anti-social dingbat with nothing better to do than run around trying to convince people that you're right and everyone else is wrong, even though normal people know better.
GP: Yeah, it's him.
Stop coming on these boards to masturbate to your inflated sense of self worth. If I claimed I knew what was responsible for people killing other people, I could go on talk shows and lie to America too.
As for these 'veterans' I wonder how many really are veterans and how many are just your typical war is bad and games are bad retards. I don't know a lot of veterans who came back from Iraq complaining, no matter how much they got fucked up.
Now, I DO know a lot of guys who complained while they were there, but that's due to a "second verse, same as the first" lifestyle.
As to Jack Thompson's claim that this is the military's finest, it's utter bullshit. The 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta (more commonly known as Delta Force) is the finest, and they also are smart enough to know that this kind of thing is bullshit because the premise is flawed. They also don't complain, and all have degrees (mainly in psychology).
In conclusion, never say HOOAH again Jack, you slimy little bitch.
HOOAH! AIRBORNE LEADS THE WAY,
Austin Lewis.
Wow.
You do remember his spurt of Caps Lock euphoria, don't you?
@ BearDogg-X
That's just what i was going to say. He said it wasn't a true application of real-life. That does NOT mean he said War games = Murder Simulators.
Besides, if Thompson is going to claim that Real Life is something completely different from a computer game, I'm not going to disagree with him.
You have a point there. However millions of people have already said that. Don't act like you're humanity's last hope.
Also, you would actually do something to help if you told the US government that. As recruitment for the Armed Forces dwindles, the State is starting to advertise war to gamers.
I'm saying its not the finest because the finest don't complain. People who come back and piss and moan are the low end of the totem pole, and often people who made their own experience in Iraq worse via compaining or being a complete douche.
Also, people from Aircav and Infantry units aren't the finest. SF units are the finest, and if you can't figure that out then you need to learn about the military.
1. War is, effectively, a game played with real lives. It may not seem like it but it has all the strategizing of a game. Planning, executing, backup moves, etc., are all elements of a game. It doesn't look like a game, but in reality you could consider it as much of a game as Tic-Tac-Toe. Therefore, saying 'war is not a game' is illogical, because what else can you call war? We can't just call it "war" because that's too vague. What is war, then? A sport? A hobby? An international pasttime? Is it research? What is it? Since War isn't a game, what just -is- war?
2. If you're going to go after America's Army for being a game based around the real U.S army, you may as well just go after every First-Person Shooter that has to do with any War in general. Even fake wars. Why? Because "war is not a game." If it's not a game, then why can it be made so easily into a game? Do fictional wars count? Or is it just war entirely in general? If war is not a game, then why do we have games ABOUT war?
Lastly, their protest does absolutely nothing due to the lack of impact they certainly have. Saying "War is not a game!" is so vague that no one would ever give it serious thought. It doesn't account for, well, anything at all. It doesn't mention any games about war, it doesn't try to mention anything even related to the war. I just wonder, have these people even looked at America's Army? Or rather, any game that uses real military firearms as weapons?
As for the issue, the idea of training on a video game for military service is questionable. Unless Im going into battle with a 360 controler and a Shield that recharges im not inclined to chance it.
If you work in the White House or for it, you are employed at the president's pleasure. This means you can be let go for any reason at any time.
These particular people who were fired were supposed to be looking into the 04 elections to investigate voter fraud. Instead, they did little to no work but still drew a paycheck. This is the reason they were fired.
I understand that fully, i just wanted to show that firing of US attorneys for any reason is nothing new, Clinton fired 93, Bush 8. It was to merely poke holes in his argument and show the absurdity of the fact that this became an issue at all.
Because it can't be stressed enough, especially with regards to this article, stop using "Hooha!" you asshole! It's an insult to these soldiers and everyone else in the military who visits here.
Enjoy your little jab while you can. If I recall, don't you have a disciplinary hearing to go to today? I can play Nostradamus too. I predict today's going to be a really bad day for you.
Of course your this centuries Nostradamus. Your predictions are only right when interpreted incorrectly or by the ignorant. Any intelligent person can see right through your lies.
Also I find you agreeing with these people that "War Is Not a Game" funny considering your stance on games.
Could you please clarify that point.
Nostrodamus was almost never right, he gained noteriatey because his vague ramblings were numerous enough to statistically hit at least once, the rest were shoddily interpreted to mean any old events, he was a quack, much like you.
And yeah, you missed the point that these veterans are there saying actually killing is nothing like a video game, way to ginore the fatcs for the umpteenth time.
He picks and chooses all of his facts. He'll say anything if it supports his argument for the moment, even if he contradicts himself.
The comment was directed a JT, not you.
Also, if you think that SF are only the "finest" then I think you have a very skewed view of the military in my opinion. Remeber its all those who you don't consider "The finest" that get the SF to their locations to do their jobs, from the intel guys, to the mechanics, pilots etc. I am not knocking SF in any way, I applaud their efforts in what they do but there are tons more out there in harms way everday doing the job just as well.
@ Jack Thompson
That's awesome! We can just choose a few choice words from a statement, rearrange them and make a new statement to quote? So THAT'S how you do it all the time! This is a great new technique that I plan to enact immediately
So, in other news: Ebert believes games are art, Jessica Alba and I are married, fried foods build strong muscles, and the South has 10 of the 15 top states with the lowest obesity rates. Good knight, everyone. This has been Gameboy reporting. Think I'll go eat some fried chicken, now.
Actually my good man, there are specific groups that work with them, and are 'attached' to them, which means, for the time being, they become a part of the SF unit.
As to getting them to the fight, that's either the AirForce job or the job of the 160th SOAR.
I do however understand your point.
Did... did he just try to make a war protest about all about himself?
...
I feel ill.
That's poor taste even by Thompson's standards.
Nostradamus... pfff
From the article:
"We want people to know the truth about military service and that it's not always what they say," she said.
Dougherty said many potential recruits may not realize the consequences the prolonged war in Iraq may have on their service — increased chances of repeated deployment, extended tours of duty, a call back into war even after a contract expires and difficulty accessing benefits upon return. "
Now this I can understand, folks wanting all the facts about service life getting to the folks looking to join. I am all for that. They weren't protesting the game at all but the fact the recruiters were only highlighting the certain parts. Americas Army is only one of their recruiting tools that just happen to be on display there at the time. Is ol' JT seriously thinking that if the game wasn't there that they wouldn't have protested? Please.
I am working on my 16th year of military service and when folks talk to me about possibly joining I give them all the info, both the good and bad. No need to sugarcoat or hide facts from them, they deserve to know the whole story and make an educated decision from there.
But lets not get ahead of ourselves here Jack. You shouldn't try to predict the future when you don't even know whats going on in the present. Like you constantly referring to the Alabama case as though you weren't tossed out on your ass.
The game is a great idea as a recruiting tool. The game isn't meant to change the way people think of the army its meant to grab someones attention who is interested and acctually bring them to the recruiting office.
Whether it is ethical or not to use the game as a recruiting tool is another issue. I say it's no different than the ECA telling gamers on ads here on GP that, "If the government has their way, you won't be able to play half the games on this website." It's all propaganda imo. Everyone has their right to say what they want to say though.
oh wait...
The ancient greeks had a lot of gods, but the two that get the lion's share of attention in the myths and plays, are Ares and Aphrodite. Mankind's two greatest passions, Love & War. Always have been and forever will be.
Plus, context aside, AA is actually a really fun game.
Your actually correct, nostradamus wasn't that accurate to begin with, and neither are you.
Just a snippet from the wikipedia entry of Nostradamus
"In contrast, most of the academic sources listed below maintain that the associations made between world events and Nostradamus' quatrains are largely the result of misinterpretations or mistranslations (sometimes deliberate) or else are so tenuous as to render them useless as evidence of any genuine predictive power. Moreover, none of the sources listed offers any evidence that anyone has ever interpreted any of Nostradamus' quatrains specifically enough to allow a clear identification of any event in advance.[1]"
get that Jack? making a broad statement doesn't mean you said something specific years ago.
"Behold the King of the Two of Take,
Conspire he thus to poison the minds of youth,
With images to the eyes of violence unmatched,
Youth of the land copy these, sayeth the gray crusader."
You, sir, get a cookie.
A BIG cookie.
Jack is none of those however. Well, maybe a criminal.
And? You seriously think people are "suckered" into being recruited because they think it is? I sincerely hope the Army's recruitment/training process would weed out such people...
It's no worse than stuff like implying chicks dig a man in uniform, that joining lets you travel the world, or paying for your education.
All useless if you get killed/injured. But they make great recruiting tools.
You know, I was here when he said this and I totally forgot..I know it's old but this just tickles me. This made me laugh so hard at work...
“nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.”
I'd also like to add.."Or vice president." to that.
As for the topic at hand, if they were trying to be anti-Iraq then I'd say setting their sights on a video game is aiming pretty low. However, I see the point that they're more protesting the overly glamourized image of the Army that it sells in its recruiting methods.
I recall a news story long ago about how the glamorized image used in AA and other Army recruitment materials wasn't the direction they originally were going to go with. But, the slogan "U.S. Army - Join Us And You Might Not Get Killed In Action" didn't test well. Seriously, the Army is just like any other company. There's plenty of people you can probably talk to to hear about what working there is REALLY like. But any company that's hiring people is only going to talk about the good and spin any possible negatives in a positive light. I don't see why the Army should be forced to recruit in a drastically different way from everyone else. Yes, the risks involved in joining the Army are somewhat greater than those of a code monkey's job - but there's plenty of ways for you to find that out, and if you're joining the Army under the assumption that it's 100% safe, I don't think the Army alone can be blamed for your misconceptions.
You are not this century's Nostradamus. In fact, as Shoehorn said, the protestors said video games are in no way representative of real life, therefore you cannot train on a video game, which is the exact opposite of what you said about "murder simulators"
I am more of a Nostradamus than you: I have predicted the outcome of the last four presidential elections and the race of those responsible for the attacks on September eleventh. That's five more correct predictions than you.
Anyone with an AKO account should check out the video game forum set up by current soldiers who game and fight, as well.
As far as I now merceneries get the same training, better pay and better equipment, way better medical benifits, also less legal liability...(until half a year ago that would have read NO legal liability at all...)
not sure about pension but considering how US treats veterans of old wars, I would say mercs probably have a better pension as well..
So why the hell would anyone ever join the US armed forces???? Oh yes patriotism...good for them but if I was to do my patriotic duty I would do it as a merc...
As for the game, its fun to play but somehow I am not compelled to join the army or go out and kill people... Maybe the army should stop listening to Jack Thompson and realise that the game doesn't help them at all, except maybe it brings some extra people to their website so maybe it does work better then tv commercials...
My point is that like many middle eastern terrorist groups, the army has now figured out that video games can be used to recruit the young and the foolish. I don't really fault veterans who have seen what war is really like for protesting this.
Guess where Blackwater and the other PMOs get their soldiers? Retired US military. Private org's just can't put together the same kind of training the world's finest soldiers get, sorry. As to pensions, a veteran 20-year career Army soldier retiring at SFC can get about 11k (plus medical) a year until permanent retirement, after which he gets full support. Officers and distinguished soldiers can get even better. Despite whatever issues you have with the military, and despite what the unverified washouts in the video have to say, you should know that the military take care of their own.
And Blackwater? They operate on a contractual basis. Once you're off the roll, you're off the roll. And I don't think your kids get scholarships just because you worked as a merc. I checked their dental and it stinks, too.
Oh, and read JT's comment. You just agreed with him. Congrats.
@Jack
Run along, the grown-ups are talking.
Not entirely true. The military, like insurance companies, takes care the subset of "their own" that meet the requirements set forth by books of fine print. (Not that the fine print matters- they change the whole damn system to suit their needs.)
And why do we constantly refer to exersises as war games as well?
You know maybe thats the problem though, we arent taking the war like it is a game.
Change the system? Is that just a general assertion you're throwing out there, or something specific? The only drop in benefits in recent memory was when Clinton bludgeoned the operating and pension budget in the 1990s.
But when the the civilians vote for cutbacks in veterans benefits (the brass never have), other organizations run by current and former military step in. Check out people like Army Emergency Relief ( www.aerhq.org ).
The point is that soldiers get what they enlisted for. Just because one can't comprehend the reason a rational individual, even with an education, signs up for life-threatening duty, doesn't mean one should totally disregard it and claim coercion or some sort of manipulation.
Colleges, corporations, and volunteer organizations alike all offer incentives and push sentimental jargon to get people to sign up. However, that doesn't mean that those who sign up are irrational, coerced zombies.
People on this site need to realize that intelligent individuals can and do join the Army for worthwhile, noble reasons. RESPECT it. Don't blind yourself to protect your ego.
As to the game? It's free, and it promotes some Army values. Nothing more.
"And why do we constantly refer to exersises as war games as well?"
Because play fighting is *totally* different from, er, play fighting...
Yeah I don't know what they're on about. Military training doesn't put you through the horrors of war either. They don't sit recruits down and show them nasty bullet wounds (unless it's the battlefield first aid training, but that just shows the aftermath, not what it looks like from the eyes of the shooter...)
Jacko has never claimed to have served in the military and although he does it all the time it seems especially egregious in a posting about military.
Hooah is the Army. Oorah is Marines. Booyah is Navy. And no one cares about what Air Force has to say.
Seriously though, none of my squadmates walk around saying 'hooah' in the civilian world except when on the phone with each other, so I'm gonna say that I'm 100% sure that JT never did anything with the Army.
Or really anything that benefited anyone other than himself ever.
Watch Black Hawk Down; the Delta Force soldiers are the ones in the black helmets.
An interesting note; these helmets are not bullet proof at all. They are made out of a high quality plastic with padding. They are made by Pro-Tec, a company that also makes skateboard helmets.
Some of the greatest helmets ever made, those Pro-tec helmets.
Basically, Rangers aren't the "best" -- they are somewhat more "elite", in that they get more and harder training than your typical soldier, but the "best" in the Army are the Special Forces (even more advanced training including S.E.A.R. school, something Rangers don't get trained in, IIRC), and the "best of the best" are pulled from them.
AA claims to have had 40 million downloads of the game and its patches. They say they have over 8 million registered accounts, with about half that many having completed the basic training portion. Geez, if a quarter of those people signed up, we wouldn't have any shortage of military personnel. So, yeah, the game is really making people think war is like the game.
I see nothing wrong with the game concept, even if it is somewhat sanitized... now, if they'd include more open-world adventure elements outlining base life and all that entails (including base transfers, deployment, and the difficulties of keeping personal relationships going through all of that), maybe it would be somewhat more useful than just showing them some stuff and say "this is what basic entails... this is what we do on training exercises... these are rules of engagement...". The military has every right to put their point of view out there, just as this group has the right to explain theirs.
But 90 protesters constitutes an "annual meeting" for the group? Sounds like a publicity stunt on their behalf than anything. Trolling for new members much?
Well that honestly depends on what you want to know about.
If you want a military career in the army or marines, you need to get to airborne school.
If you've got anything else you want to know, ask.
Nothing in particular, really. Not considering a military career either. My comment was probably more along the lines of a person who would want to watch a special on the History channel or something; I liked watching the people who knew what there were talking about compare stuff. Since I don't know anything about it at all, I wouldn't know what to ask.
And besides, isn't masturbation a sin? ... or is it that Jack believes he is the exception?
Also you do realize the 'hooah' request will fall on deaf ears (Just like any of our posts starting with @Jack/JT/Jack Thompson or any variation thereof) until someone in uniform actually sets him straight, right?
@Black Manta
Can't wait to read the headline tomorrow, if that is the case. Heck I'll make a screencap of it, even... set as background ;)
Jack, do you even read this shit before posting? They're saying video games CAN'T train you to kill or shoot a gun. This is the exact opposite of what you've been saying for years.
Are you actually trying to look retarded? (Apologies to any retarded people I may have offended by comparing you to Jack Thompson. Nobody deserves that!)
Actually, look over in the forums. According to reports, It's been moved back to November. :(
Darn... well that would make for a great early christmas present.
A game is fun and while some people might not like FPS games, then that's their prerogative, but it's a free country OK. There are plenty of soldiers currently who love military games such as Medal of Honor or Call of Duty. In fact many are waiting for the upcoming Call of Duty 4: Modern Combat, myself included. If you check out the game trailers of Call of Duty 4, there's a military adviser that's said how much some of these guys love these games.
I'm sick and tired of people trying to blame games for people killing others. If someone has killed another and they also played a FPS game, then I can guarantee you that it still would have occurred had they not played the game.
Do movies and games effect people in some way? I'm sure they do to some extent, but they are not the cause. I don't think it's gonna hold up in court, if you kill someone and say, well, I played America's Army and I did it there so I thought it was OK, or even something like a game like Manhunt 2.
I don't think kids should play these games, and it's fine if you don't like them, but many people do and because they do don't make them bad. In fact there's a Christian Gaming League that plays Call of Duty 2, Battlefield 2 and Battlefield 2142. The Bible doesn't even allude to playing games as a sin, so don't anyone say it's wrong because it's not. I have the utmost respect for the people in the military and if they don't like these games either, that's totally fine, but don't tell me what I can or can't do! If you don't want your kids playing these types of games, that's fine and they shouldn't actually until they get a certain age, but don't you dare try to compare a game to actual killing and/or war. That's just a cheap excuse to berate the game, just because you don't like it!
Its very realistic in the way it shows how war is... up to a degree. There is no blood, no guts on the floor. You can get hit point blank with a RPG and you will leave a solid corpse behind.
Wounded people dont scream, they just move slower.
An interesting and perhaps insidious design move is that both sides see the other side as 'bad guys'. So if you play a map in the Middle East, the other side looks arabic, you look like US army. But the other side sees you like Arabs and they are US. Through a clever trick of programming. So if you play the game you are always US and the other side is always some colored race.
War is not a game, it's power politics. Nations wage wars to win fame, support, resources or territories - not for the fun of it.
The Nostradamus reference was with a wink, if you happen to be blind.
HOOAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!