Submitted by Soldatlouis - October 2, 2007 at 5:49 am -0500193.52.32.157
For your info, here is what Grossman said on video games 11 years ago in his first book "On Killing" :
"This is not an attack on all video games. Video games are an interactive medium. They demand and develop trial-and-error and systematic problem-resolving skills, and they teach planning, mapping, and deferment of gratification. Watch children as they play video games and interact with other children in their neighborhood. To parents raised on a steady diet of movies and sitcoms, watching a child play Mario Brothers for hours on end may not be particularly gratifying, but that is just the point. As they play they solve problems and overcome instructions that are intentionally inadequate and vague. They exchange playing strategies, memorize routes, and make maps. They work long and hard to attain the gratification of finally winning a game. And there are no commercials : no enticements for sugar, no solicitation of violent toys and no messages of social failure if they do not wear the right shoes or clothes.
We might prefer to see children reading or getting exercise and interacting with the real world by playing outside, but video games are definitely preferable to most television. But video games can also be superb at teaching violence - violence packaged in the same format that has more quadrupled the firing rate of modern soldiers.
When I speak of violence enabling I am not talking about video games in which the player defeats creatures by bopping them on the head. Nor am I talking about games where you maneuver swordsmen and archers to defeat monsters. On the borderline in violence enabling are games where you use a joystick to maneuver a gunsight around the screen to kill gangsters who pop up and fire at you. The kind of games that are very definitely enabling violence are the ones in which you actually hold a weapon in your hand and fire it at human-shaped targets on the screen. These kinds of games can be played on home video, but you usually see them in video arcades."
To be honest, at that time Grossman certainly didn't seem to know anything about First-Person Shooters and Mortal Kombat action figures. His only problem was Lightgun games. But Paducah and Jonesboro made him change his mind brutally. Since then, he almost never precised that "this was not an attack against all video games", and he certainly never declared again that video games "were definitely preferable to most television".
By the way, contrary to what Time says, Grossman never wrote a book entitled "On Violence". He wrote three books : "On Killing, "Stop Teaching Our Kids To Kill" (with Gloria DeGaetano) and "On Combat" (with Loren Christensen). But it's not a big mistake.
Posted 07/24/08 at 01:45pm Dark Sovereign: A fitting metaphor lumi
Posted 07/24/08 at 11:21am lumi: their own. Looks like they're arguing with ghosts...
Posted 07/24/08 at 11:20am lumi: Ooh, and to prove the validity of their arguments, they've deleted all the comments from the gamers/outsiders, and just left
Posted 07/24/08 at 11:20am lumi: Wow...there's worse invective and vitriol on that first feminist site's comments than in most gaming forums I've read...
Posted 07/24/08 at 11:19am SimonBob: You guys can read the feminist blogs? One of 'em has over 1400 comments -- my browser locks up when I try to load the page!
Posted 07/24/08 at 10:49am M. Carusi: That's probably the message to describe hardcore feminism in general. :P
Posted 07/24/08 at 10:35am Tom90deg: Meh, it seems like most of the comments are "I'm right, and it you don't agree with me, you're a girl-hating masonogystic pig!"
Posted 07/24/08 at 10:30am M. Carusi: Those comment walls on the feminist blogs complaining about FP are generating some hilarious content.
Posted 07/24/08 at 08:48am E. Zachary Knight: @ lunatic, What you see is what you get. Once a comment gets pushed off it is gone forever.
Posted 07/24/08 at 07:39am sortableturnip: Best...comments...ever: http://jaablog.jaablaw.com/2008/07/06/jack-needs-your-help.aspx?pg=5&view=threaded
Posted 07/24/08 at 05:42am sortableturnip: Alteffor: I 2nd that motion. GP you should have a special section for all of JT's correspondence to you
Posted 07/23/08 at 10:13pm GRIZZAM PRIME: Lunatic: Nope. Ever fading if I'm not mistaken.
Posted 07/23/08 at 08:05pm LuNaTiC: is there a way to view old shouts? sorry if its a noob question.
Posted 07/23/08 at 07:07pm gamepolitics: momma didn't raise no sock puppet
Posted 07/23/08 at 06:15pm Rodrigo Ybáñez García: Jack is a repressed man. Don´t be surprised...
Posted 07/23/08 at 06:07pm GryphonOsiris: So Jack admitted paying for gay porn... all I can say is wow... just wow...
Posted 07/23/08 at 05:09pm lumi: to the case, and he's been on 60 minutes once!
Posted 07/23/08 at 05:09pm lumi: GP, you should mention you'll be filing a legal injunction against him if he doesn't comply. Phoenix Wright will be attached
Posted 07/23/08 at 03:32pm Alteffor: You should add a section to the site for anything Jack CC's to you. It's always entertaining to read the stuff he writes.
Posted 07/23/08 at 03:31pm Matriculated: Does anyone know when the Supreme Court reaches their decission?
"This is not an attack on all video games. Video games are an interactive medium. They demand and develop trial-and-error and systematic problem-resolving skills, and they teach planning, mapping, and deferment of gratification. Watch children as they play video games and interact with other children in their neighborhood. To parents raised on a steady diet of movies and sitcoms, watching a child play Mario Brothers for hours on end may not be particularly gratifying, but that is just the point. As they play they solve problems and overcome instructions that are intentionally inadequate and vague. They exchange playing strategies, memorize routes, and make maps. They work long and hard to attain the gratification of finally winning a game. And there are no commercials : no enticements for sugar, no solicitation of violent toys and no messages of social failure if they do not wear the right shoes or clothes.
We might prefer to see children reading or getting exercise and interacting with the real world by playing outside, but video games are definitely preferable to most television. But video games can also be superb at teaching violence - violence packaged in the same format that has more quadrupled the firing rate of modern soldiers.
When I speak of violence enabling I am not talking about video games in which the player defeats creatures by bopping them on the head. Nor am I talking about games where you maneuver swordsmen and archers to defeat monsters. On the borderline in violence enabling are games where you use a joystick to maneuver a gunsight around the screen to kill gangsters who pop up and fire at you. The kind of games that are very definitely enabling violence are the ones in which you actually hold a weapon in your hand and fire it at human-shaped targets on the screen. These kinds of games can be played on home video, but you usually see them in video arcades."
To be honest, at that time Grossman certainly didn't seem to know anything about First-Person Shooters and Mortal Kombat action figures. His only problem was Lightgun games. But Paducah and Jonesboro made him change his mind brutally. Since then, he almost never precised that "this was not an attack against all video games", and he certainly never declared again that video games "were definitely preferable to most television".
By the way, contrary to what Time says, Grossman never wrote a book entitled "On Violence". He wrote three books : "On Killing, "Stop Teaching Our Kids To Kill" (with Gloria DeGaetano) and "On Combat" (with Loren Christensen). But it's not a big mistake.