Debate Ignores Gamers; Video Game Critic Romney Declines to Condemn Torture Practice
Debate Ignores Gamers; Video Game Critic Romney Declines to Condemn Torture Practice
November 29, 2007
Like many GamePolitics readers, I was disappointed that none of the videos submitted by gamers made the final cut for last night's CNN/YouTube Republican debate.To be fair, however, there are many other crucial issues such as Iraq, abortion, gun control, the economy and the influence of religion on politics. Host Anderson Cooper focused on these.
One telling moment for me, however, came when Mitt Romney could not bring himself to condemn the practice of waterboarding. Here's a guy who decries violent video games as part the "cultural cesspool" in which today's children are supposedly swimming but can't even find it within himself to condemn this acknowledged form of torture?
Sen. John McCain - who was a torture victim during his years of captivity by the North Vietnamese - absolutely ripped Romney on the issue and he was right to do so.
For Romney, the take-away is that virtual violence is a horror, but real-life torture is okay.
Governor, your hypocrisy is showing...
Here's the video of McCain-Romney exchange. Full text version after the jump.
UPDATE: Entertainment Consumers Association president Hal Halpin has weighed in on the debate:
I was disappointed not to see a gamer question in much the same way that I was disheartened not to hear many other secondary, but important, questions posed.
The ECA member I ran into at PAX... put it into context well in that anyone watching a two hour debate on CNN very likely already knows where the candidates stand on the major issues, and it's certainly easy enough to find out otherwise.
What we don't know is where - or even "if" - they stand on the secondary matters. We won't let up however. Consumer rights are topically important and our demographic can and will be motivated to vote, but only if those politicians are willing to make the effort to speak to issues that are important to us.
Andrew Jones: Hello, gentlemen. I'm Andrew, and I'm a college student from Seattle, Washington. Recently, Senator McCain has come out strongly against using waterboarding as an instrument of interrogation.
My question for the rest of you is, considering that Mr. McCain is the only one with any firsthand knowledge on the subject, how can those of you sharing the stage with him disagree with his position?
Cooper: Governor Romney?
Romney: Well, he certainly is an expert and I certainly would want to get his counsel on a matter of this nature, but I do not believe that as a presidential candidate, it is wise for us to describe precisely what techniques we will use in interrogating people.
I oppose torture. I would not be in favor of torture in any way, shape or form.
Cooper: Is waterboarding torture?
Romney: And as I just said, as a presidential candidate, I don't think it's wise for us to describe specifically which measures we would and would not use. And that is something which I would want to receive the counsel not only of Senator McCain, but of a lot of other people.
And there are people who, for many, many years get the information we need to make sure that we protect our country. And, by the way, I want to make sure these folks are kept at Guantanamo. I don't want the people that are carrying out attacks on this country to be brought into our jail system and be given legal representation in this country. I want to make sure that what happened ...
(Applause)
... to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed happens to other people who are terrorists. He was captured. He was the so-called mastermind of the 9/11 tragedy. And he turned to his captors and he said, "I'll see you in New York with my lawyers." I presume ACLU lawyers.
(Laughter)
Well, that's not what happened. He went to Guantanamo and he met G.I.s and CIA interrogators. And that's just exactly how it ought to be.
(Applause)
Cooper: Senator McCain?
(Crosstalk)
(Unknown): There were reports Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded.
McCain: Well, governor, I'm astonished that you haven't found out what waterboarding is.
Romney: I know what waterboarding is, Senator.
McCain: Then I am astonished that you would think such a -- such a torture would be inflicted on anyone in our -- who we are held captive and anyone could believe that that's not torture. It's in violation of the Geneva Convention. It's in violation of existing law...
(Applause)
And, governor, let me tell you, if we're going to get the high ground in this world and we're going to be the America that we have cherished and loved for more than 200 years. We're not going to torture people.
We're not going to do what Pol Pot did. We're not going to do what's being done to Burmese monks as we speak. I suggest that you talk to retired military officers and active duty military officers like Colin Powell and others, and how in the world anybody could think that that kind of thing could be inflicted by Americans on people who are held in our custody is absolutely beyond me.
Cooper: Governor Romney, 30 seconds to respond.
(Applause)
Romney: Senator McCain, I appreciate your strong response, and you have the credentials upon which to make that response. I did not say and I do not say that I'm in favor of torture.
I am not. I'm not going to specify the specific means of what is and what is not torture so that the people that we capture will know what things we're able to do and what things we're not able to do. And I get that advice from Cofer Black, who is a person who was responsible for counterterrorism in the CIA for some 35 years.
I get that advice by talking to former generals in our military...
Cooper: Time.
Romney: ... and I don't believe it's appropriate for me, as a presidential candidate, to lay out all the issues one by one...
Cooper: Time.
Romney: ... get questioned one by one: Is this torture, is that torture?
Cooper: Senator McCain...
Romney: And so, that's something which I'm going to take your and other people's counsel on.
Cooper: Senator McCain, 30 seconds to respond.
McCain: Well, then you would have to advocate that we withdraw from the Geneva Conventions, which were for the treatment of people who were held prisoners, whether they be illegal combatants or regular prisoners of war. Because it's clear the definition of torture. It's in violation of laws we have passed.
And again, I would hope that we would understand, my friends, that life is not "24" and Jack Bauer.
Life is interrogation techniques which are humane and yet effective. And I just came back from visiting a prison in Iraq. The Army general there said that techniques under the Army Field Manual are working and working effectively, and he didn't think they need to do anything else.
My friends, this is what America is all about. This is a defining issue and, clearly, we should be able, if we want to be commander in chief of the U.S. Armed Forces, to take a definite and positive position on, and that is, we will never allow torture to take place in the United States of America.
(Applause)
Comments
Good point.
what, those little cubes you put in water to make soup?
Actually, I'm pretty sure this is Dennis McCauley's site, so he can post anything he sees fit. I'm sure you'd agree from the sheer number of comments that plenty of other people feel this is a worthy discussion.
Personally, I think it's a valid topic simply because we're gamers and we're discussing politics - plus, it always irks me when people say, "hey! you can't talk about that here" when they disagree with the opinions expressed on this site.
I wasn't aware Dennis had to be impartial, anyway. This is still a blog, after all.
People will look and see it as another terrorist attack, which it is, and would be in panic. Wanting to end it so there isn't a third attack, they would be more likely to support any means of "information retrieval." It'd be like, say, OJ Simpson. People whom thought he was innocent, then he came out with that stupid book, and that only hurt his cause of being "innocent." If we were attacked again, it'd only hurt the image of equality, leading to support of such illegal tactics.
Since you won't let it drop after me asking nicely I'll say what I had wanted to in the first place. The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the Constitution OR the Declaration. The phrase is taken, out of context mind you, from a letter Jefferson wrote to one of his constituents. In the letter the constituent expressed concern that the U.S. would create a state church, not unlike the Church of England, and that to be a citizen one would have to belong to said church. Jefferson noted that would be not be the case because of the separation. That singular line was distorted into the insanity we see today. It never meant that a Christian can't run for office, it never meant that a Christian in office can't pray about the issues in his office, and it for sure never meant that a Christian has to "turn off his faith" while holding an elected position.
btw I agree that, and even said so in the beginning, that Romney was a bad choice. I only mentioned Huckabee because, as I said earlier, he's the only one who's hit my personal voting criteria.
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As to waterboarding, we all have different opinions and different reasons for those opinions. I could be as limited as you and declare supporters, such as yourself, of waterboarding to be admitted abusers and should be considered violently dangerous to themselves, their family, and others in society around them since such an individual that is so accepting of the use of abuse and torture would probably commit the very act of violence against others for ANY reason.
However, I am an intelligent person and know better than to make such ignorant statements.
Yes, I'm against it. Simply because it is outright stupid and ignorant to declare such acts used by terrorists and others to be atrocities and then turn around and use those very same or similar practices ourselves.
But what do you expect from governments... or Humans
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Vote Ron Paul 2008.
I fail to see how bearing children is a service to anything. Considering the ridiculous overpopulation of our species and its effect on our environment and natural resources, you'd think we'd be looking for excuses to tone down our breeding habits.
Really, anyone who's worried that we might not be making enough babies... well, allow me to dissuade their fears. :)
This conversation is getting off-topic, though.
"Waterboarding is a good thing."
I stopped reading right about there. You are pro-torture and yet you want to bitch about Dennis' ethics? Sorry, no, fail.
It is when you are held down and a damp towel or cloth is placed on your nose and mouth and water is dumped on the towel so that you start breathing in the water. You are drowning but it is usually stopped before you die.
You want your government to have the right to do this? Are you nuts?
BTW I apologize for my own forrays into that realm. I do tend to get a tad carried away at times and I'm sorry if that's ever made things more difficult for you Dennis.
What is the real reason you post here? I see no real point in you having to bring religion in to this particular topic.
Criticism is one thing, but what you're doing is trying to beat it with an aluminum bat.
If you really thing, and i mean REALLY think, religion is the problem, what are YOU doing to "correct" it?
he is a mormon
not a christan
"True, I will continue critiquing religious hate and superstition when it lies at the heart of censorship attempts in this industry. A combination of truth, honesty, unbiased critique, and consistent logic will never stop me from refuting the lies of an internally contradictory religious system that is being used to stomp our a great deal of freedom and rights in this country."
Fine, have it your way. Oh, and have fun getting banned for ignoring Dennis' warning to stop these off topic rants.
It's not that they're dancing around the subject, they're just too busy doing the chicken dance for the misguided 'Do it for the children' crowd.
Yet another reason this country needs a governmental enema.
Pretty much. But sacrificing games is also for the "OH MY GOD, EVIL SINFUL VIDEO GAMES ARE INJECTING SATAN INTO SOCIETY AND DESTROYING THE FAMILY. FICTIONAL DEPICTION OF VIOLENCE AND SEX = SIN. SIN = DESTROYED" crowd. Most of these canidates have taken a firm stance on the issue: they oppose games on both moral grounds [and encourage forms of censorship] and for teh Childrenziz!
For instance, I previously had no thoughts on Romney before, now that I have some information I can work with, I think he would be an awful president. I don't even want him in a Govenor's position. I think I might be OK with a local Council, or maybe head of Political Dead-end position.
I am glad to McCain stand up to him and throw his argument back in his face.
I am going to have to look more into McCain, but right now, Obama is still my top choice.
Does anyone even care about Romney? Isn't he like in dead last, now that Stephen Colbert is off the ballot?
Hillary is no better, and obama lacks the experiance I think a president needs. On the other hand, theres damn few alternatives on either side really. Makes me sad that this is what we have to chose from in next years election.
Would I want to be tortured? No. Would anyone want to be tortured? No.
If I were captured by terrorists would I be tortured? Yes (and then decapitated).
Is torturing known terrorists in order to gain information that could save the lives of my countrymen and women bad? I don't think so.
If I were tortured to gain information about an attack I knew about that would kill people in another country, would I like it? No. But I'd understand why they're doing it.
I liked the Senator's response. He basically said, "I refuse to show the terrorists our hand. If we tell the world that if a terrorist is captured, we will give him a stern talking to, what is to discourage them from continuing to plot our demise?"
Torture continues without our knowledge, and will continue no matter who is in office. The only difference is who is willing to outright lie to the public to protect their image.
Be careful of McCain and the rest of the GoP for that matter. They all stand against social freedom, economic fariness, scientific advancment, and peaceful foriegn policy.
McCain has said, quite explicitly at a pro-Israel convention hosted by Jerry Farwell, that he believes the book of Revelations should serve as an inspiration and justification of contemporary foriegn policy. I question the sanity of a man who would make such a claim.
@Hkdjr
You really think Huckabee hits the nail on the head for your top criteria? What criteria do you refer to? Are you aware of Huckabee's stances on the issues?
Huckabee stands against working people by supporting a disgusting economic structure that is channeling more American money upwards than any point in recent history. Huckabee stands against the rights of the American people to live equally and happily under matrimony and common law marriage. Huckabee stands for enforcing personal moral values and religious norms on a free nation. Huckabee supports internationally illegal warfare and using lies to justify war as a measure of national policy. Huckabee stands against healthcare for the American people to ensure that his corporatized donors can continue to exploit the suffering of honest people for profit. Huckabee stands against the protection of our environment and advancement of the sciences. His superstitious value system, founded upon ambiguous religious principles derived from Bronze Age superstition, refutes basic ethical obligations founded upon the principle of autonomy. Huckabee stands for the barbaric implementation of the death penalty, a relic of retributive justice that has absolutely no moral or preventative value. Huckabee stands for torture and misleading the American people into believing artificially inflated terror threats. Huckabee is also rabidly anti-woman. He thinks women should return to their Biblically defined roles as nothing but wives and mothers. He believes life begins at conception, which means he's not just desirous of banning abortion but hormonal birth control and the IUD, along with comprehensive sex education since men MUST have virgin brides.
...is this the kind of person you want leading a society that is supposedly the foundation of democratic freedom in the free world?
Lone Gunmen be damned!
Our refusal and acknowledgment of torture as an immoral and disgusting practice is precisely what makes American better than tyrannical nations. How can we denounce torture internationally as a terrible practice, but at the same time defend the use of torture within our own territories?
Romney offered a response to the cowards in this country who are so disillusioned by the threat of international terrorism that they would be willing to sacrafice one of America's greatest moral positions. Myself and thousands of Americans would rather die in a terrorist attack than see the country we love contradict itself by torturing a human being. Those who denounce torture, in all cases except national security, are both cowardly and inconsistent.
Huckabee is pretty much against everyone who isn't a W.A.S.P. which includes "the gays." The only thing Huckabee is good for is supporting Net Neutrality.
handy candidate-issue guide: http://www.2decide.com/table.htm
I don't condone torture but at the same time presenting to the world the techniques which can and can't be used for solely political points seems to be a risk to our national security. I'm willing to bet that some of the techniques which we use in the army field manual would be seen by a lot of people as torture but McCain is okay with those. But tipping our hand to the things people may or may not be subject to greatly diminishes the effctiveness of the things we can do.
The irony being that, by railing against the commonly held beliefs of the right in such a zealous manner he comes off as no more reasonable and no more tolerant than those he speaks out against.
1. I am an evangelical Christian, as Huckabee is. I also believe life begins at conception. This does not make me superstitious or anti-woman.
2. I also believe in Biblical Creation. This does not make me anti-science, nor does it make it me an idiot.
3. I, again like Huckabee, don't believe in same sex marriage. Whether or not the Federal Government needs to get involved is another matter entirely.
4. I also support capital punishment. If nothing else it deters that one person from ever hurting anyone ever again.
5. I do believe that the Earth is getting warmer, however whether or not man is responsible is in question to me. Looking back every 30-50 years a pattern emerges of global warming and cooling. Believing this does not make me anti-enviroment.
All that being said I'm also on record here for supporting free speach, even the speach I tend to disagree with. I'll do my own research on other matters, but I think you'll forgive me if I don't take your, admittedly biased, view on Huckabee as gospel.
The Republican party, unlike, the democrat party, is the party that wants to give freedom and responsibility back to the individual.
I think that is the nightmare of many a voter. Myself included. :(
It’s just “enhanced interrogation”, and last time I checked, enhanced interrogation doesn’t break any laws…
Oh, ow, my sides hurt, I'm laughing so hard... the pain.
Just so you know, the US government officially considers waterboarding... "enhanced interrogation"...
And what McCain was talking about was the stuff going on at Guantanamo and the secret CIA prisons. Not Iraq. That was too public a venue, they let the Iraqi police torture prisoners now instead... oops, sorry, I mean they let the Iraqi police "interrogate" the prisoners using "enhanced" techniques...
Three Kings anyone?
"Myself and thousands of Americans would rather die in a terrorist attack than see the country we love contradict itself by torturing a human being."
I would prefer to see one hateful person or criminal go through severe discomfort to protect you and thousands of other innocent Americans.
November 29th, 2007 at 11:10 am
Nothing Pandralisk says is intelligent and very little right.
The Republican party, unlike, the democrat party, is the party that wants to give freedom and responsibility back to the individual.
--------------
Yeah, really. Sorry mate, that is the worst lie i've heard in a long time.
For all his trolling about religion, which I do not in the slightest agree with, Pandralisk hits the nail on the head when he talks about Conservatives.
The whole world of intelligence and espionage is so damn fucked up. Its never as black and white as we wish, torture is bad, but then we run into the issue of defining torture. another massively gray area with some minor black and white fringe.
Is torture causing pain, or is waking someone up every hour and asking for information torture? is leaving them in a dark cell? Is yelling at them torture? Is giving them food that their religion forbids them to eat torture? What about giving them food that is harmless and nutritious, but has an additive that tastes horrible and lingers for hours on end? Is something purely psychological torture?
Its one more issue that just can't seemed to be talked about because everyone wants a black white answer.
Theres a few different phrasings but they all give the same general idea.
Another topical quote
When you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back at you.
No, it doesn't. But the use of this belief to legislate anti-abortion laws does make Huckabee anti-woman.
"I also believe in Biblical Creation. This does not make me anti-science, nor does it make it me an idiot."
Anti-science? Yes. Idiot? Probably not. But anyone who votes because of religious alignment is certainly missing the point of separation of Church and State.
DCWill,
Perhaps you missed the point where Romney compares video games to a "Cultural Cesspool" (Fake violence is bad), but declines to out a listed form of torture (Real violence = not bad). And, yes, you or I would probably think the Army field manual is toturous, but the Geneva Convention disagrees with us there.
I understand your point that Romney doesn't want to marginalize our interrogation abilities by pin-point scrutiny. But, he simply could have taken the, "I will let the experts handle what is toture and what isn't," line instead of choking on the question. (Much how he choked on the Bible question).
Video games are certainly a secondary position. Federal Budgets, the Dollar, the War in Iraq, Healthcare etc. These are very important issues, but they are discussed so frequently that some people can just glaze over them when reading about politics. But when a candidate speaks out about something different it can get people's attention and change their mind about that candidate.
That is why I am so impressed with Obama. He is the only candidate that is speaking out about technological issues. He has made a stance when all other candidates are ignoring it.
I really hate political polls, because they represent a really narrow demographic of older voters. If these polls took the opinion of younger people, the polls would really show a different story.
It seems to me that both parties have their hands in my pockets, their just looking to steal different things.
These people’s jobs are for the most part to create law, which for the most part is the restriction of liberty. Some laws are essential, don't steal, don't rape and murder. Some are bullshit, no spanking, no using transfat, no smoking. When all the candidates are proposing more of the latter I think our choices are pitiable.
Ron Paul lacks the consitsancy and drive that a president needs. Sure he has some firm followers and campaign sense, but the guy cannot handle a debate. He cannot discuss anything with out tripping up and falling back on his campaign. I have yet see him take a firm stance on anything.
I am not sure if that was sarcastic or serious, but I will respond to the latter.
The government is meant to serve and protect the people. We are the ones who matter. Unfortunately corruption and indifference from politicians have threatened that very principle. Sure Entertainment in the form of movies video games and music is a priviledge not a right, but the pursuit of happiness is an inalienble right as set forth in the constitution. Entertainment is part of our pursuit of happiness. Therefore, the DMCA, video game legislation etc. is threatening that right and needs to be addressed by the government. Corporations need protection too, but not at the expense of the people.
WTF is up with this website and this guy always ragging on Romney. He damn near never rips Hillary for her stance on games even though she is FAR more vocal about it. Hell, Romney's stance is very general. He is against violence, etc. in media overall. Hillary is specifically targeting games.
But this liberal hack can't wait to bash Romney every time he can.
And what the hell is with the talk about waterboarding on this site? This is a GAMES site, not moveon.org. If you want to whine about waterboarding do it there , jeez. Did Bowser Waterboard Mario? Not that I am aware of (although I haven't finished Mario Galaxy yet so that scene may be in there). Then it doesn't belong on this board.
But since everyone else is talking about it, I might as well put my opinion out. I think you can guess it.
Waterboarding is a good thing. If we have someone in custody who knows some important info they should be interrogated. Waterboarding doesn' do any permanent damage. It just makes you feel like you have been drowning. Real torture is much more gruesome. It's what the terrorists do to our people when they get their hands on em.
We haven't even done waterboarding all that often. Only a few times like on that hairy Ron Jeremy wannabe, kal el sheikh mohammed. He folded like an origami swan when we did it to him.
Mcain's position has nothing to do with his personal experience, IMO. For years he has been a lib in the republican party. He frequently takes lib positions to become the darling of the left wing. The left loves republican losers like him that take their side.
In the end, this is my view. If you are against waterboarding you are either: A) Dishonest, B) A moron, or C) a fucking pussy.
Now lets leave this shit off this fucking board.
'In the end, this is my view. If you are against waterboarding you are either: A) Dishonest, B) A moron, or C) a fucking pussy.'
That kind of generalisation tells me everything I need to know about you. And I bet you'd waterboard anyone who didn't agree with you.
Wow. I have never seen anyone as vocal as you. Too bad you have never read any article on this site or you would have known that Hilary is bashed quite frequently.
This article is not really a bash on Romney. It is exposing a bias and contridiction in Romney's position. Romney is a vocal proponant against violent video game, but he supports real life torture. Doesn't make sense to me.
There are also different types of torture. You have physical torture (rack, vices etc.) There is also psycological torture such as waterboarding. Both types can have detrimental effects on the person and both need to be avoided. There are less dangerous and more effective types of interogation that can and should be used.
And for those of you who are wondering, it's what I call a 'Thompson opinion', in other words, 'What I think is gospel and I consider anyone who doesn't agree with me to be either a criminal or mentally deficient'.
For some reason I have no time for people with that kind of attitude.
As for waterboarding and all other means of torture, I'm not a moron, I'm not dishonest, so I guess by your standards, I'm "a fucking pussy" for believing that all persons should be treated humanely.
There was a good line in the book Starship Troopers by Heinlein about that. He basically said that "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" was a wonderful bit of poetry, but not plausible in the modern world. For example he says that while you should not have your life taken away, you also do not have the right to take way someone elses life, and are responsible for the lives of your children, family ect. However, the best part was that he said we all have the right to 'Pursue' happiness, but that doesn't mean we actually have to obtain it. In other words by being a citizen you are not entitled to a fancy car, a big TV or the like. Heinlein was very adamant that people should work for what they have and those who have the power of politics shoud have been willingness to server to protect their country (probably based on a Roman tradition). While much of his ideas are impractical now, they are thought provoking.
@John Server - It is blatantly obvious that you do not follow this site, else you would have read the articles criticizing Hillary's involvement in anti-video game rallying/legislation (not to mention the comments that follow said articles).
"Waterboarding doesn’ (sic) do any permanent damage. "
Are you kidding me? Take a few minutes to Google "Psych 101 + torture" and read up on the affects of torture on the human mind.
"We haven’t even done waterboarding all that often."
So what branch of the US Government do you work for? CIA? FBI? Are you in the know on what goes on behind closed doors?
"In the end, this is my view. If you are against waterboarding you are either: A) Dishonest, B) A moron, or C) a fucking pussy.
Now lets leave this shit off this fucking board. "
I am the grandson of a WW2 veteran. I am the son of a Vietnam veteran. I believe in defending my country against outside threats.
My day time job consists of developing simulations meant to train soldiers so that they are better prepared to do their jobs and make it back home alive.
I'd gladly defend my family to the death, if need be.
I'd rather be punished to the fullest extent, rather than lie my way out of my mistakes.
I am completely against waterboarding, so do you wish to amend your last few statements to accommodate where I fall in your twisted logic?
Check the tag line for this site: "Where politics and video games collide."
It appears you are having a difficult time correlating the purpose of this article to video games.
Pandralisk: "Myself and thousands of Americans would rather die in a terrorist attack than see the country we love contradict itself by torturing a human being."
That ^ doesn't not speak for me. I don't support torture, but I won't let myself get killed over one person, when there are others who do need me here more than some stranger half a world away. And, the country already contradicts itself every damn day.
I wish I had my old hard-drive as I did a full-writeup on torture and it's use for our "protection". For those of you supporting all this muck, take a day out of your life, sit down, read the Patriot Act and the Geneva Convention.
Sadly I have given up hope on this election. There is no lesser of two evils. Obama (I'm sad to say that he won't get elected because of the color of his skin and his upbringing in a Muslim setting), Clinton (This is the US, not the UK you idiot, freedom of speech all that good stuff), Edwards, Guliani ("9/11,9/11,9/11, I was there on 9/11. Just don't marry me, you might find me dressed up as a woman, but I will say what the voters want to hear.") all failures.
Don't try to feed me this Ron Paul b.s. line either. The man has no consistency and a bunch of rabid supporters who are more of a danger than a help.
The system is imploding and if a revolution starts it will have worldwide implications and destabilizing effects everywhere. Sadly I don't see any other future outcome at the moment. Maybe 2012 will shed some thin ray of hope, 2008 is a wash.
Agree to disagree on Separation of Church and Sate? No. When you discuss Romney, in particular, religion must be factored in, because the man is so vocal about it, you can easily conclude he will take his religion with him into the Presidency, and quite frankly, that is against the Freedom of Religion. I am free to believe the giant spaghetti monster produces all souls, but I won't be making policy desisions based on that belief. We are certainly free to disagree on the issues, abortion, gay rights, etc. But when you start talking about making those into laws (as Romney does - hence the relevance to this article), the Constitution trumps either viewpoint.
@jkdjr25 - Excellent reminder of why history is an important subject to pay attention to. I'm one of the few that believes my girlfriend's degree in history studies is more valuable than my own (her job is also more important than my own)
Now, on topic with the article, I too am disappointed that issues involving video games were not brought up. Addressing secondary issues can result in that little nudge citizens need to walk down to a local voting booth.
It's overhyped, overrated, and we are all going to be dissapointed with the ending. And lest not forget the tagline: "Whoever wins, we lose".
@mort
What you say is the truth. If 2012 isn't better, I fear what will be around the corner.
*entering sarcasm mode for viewer protection*
Yeah, he's just full of it isn't he. I mean its not like McCain was EVER tortured...oh wait.
And where did I say a person with faith has to turn it off when becoming an elected official?
I did say, that policy decisions made to enforce a religious view (specifically - anti-abortion, anti-gay-rights) are contrary to rulings enforcing the separation of church and state. And nowhere did I even mention, " [a] Christian can’t run for office, [snip] a Christian in office can’t pray about the issues in his office," so thank you for making an issue where the was none.
As to the "insanity" you refer, I assume you mean the issue with the commandments in courts, prayer in schools, etc. Once again, I am against any Federal mandate enforcing either a ban or approval any of those issues (leaning once again on the separation of chuch and state). I feel that these isses are best dealt with locally first, regionally second, state-level third, and supreme court only in it's finality (when all other avenues are explored and there is real evidence of religious prejudice - i.e. little Jimmy the X-tian is beat up for wanting to pray in a school, or little Freddy the Wiccan is forced to participate in prayer).
However, becuse of our immediate response of, "why doesn't the government do anything!" when we get offended - we have the "insanity" that you refer to. We make national issues of the smallest thing, thanks scare mongering newsmedia. It all comes back to parental responsibility in the end. Lazy or stupid parents either won't (or can't) explain why different religions exist, so they fall back on "protecting" their kids by hiding all other views until their personal ones are rote. It's ignorance, really. And the incapability of a good many religious people to think and defend their faith on their own terms - being either only able to spout back mantra or violently demonize contrary faiths. It's sad, really, because one of the main culprits in this issue has such beautiful ideas that are so easily ignored.
Whatever happened to love thy neighbor? Or at the very least, live and let live.
Pure awesome-ness
Why mention abortion? It's not a religious issue at all, despite the fact that some people try to make it such. Someone can easily oppose abortion without having to be making "policy decisions made to enforce a religious view."
Hmm, I want to be careful here so that I don't help drag things too off-topic... then again, this particular article had more of traditional political theme to it then most here.
Same can be said of same-sex marriage.
Not that I oppose it.
LOL. Cofer Black was head of CIA CounterTerrorist Center from 1999-2002. 9/11 happened on his watch (and he's been blamed by many for failure to notify the FBI that 2 of the hijackers had entered the U.S.), Bin Laden escaped on his watch, and countless Afghan and Pakistani CIVILIANS were bought from the Afghan rebels as POWs and detained indefinitely under his watch. Now he's vice-president of Blackwater. And Mitt Romney has chosen him to be his counterterrorism policy advisor? WTF? Taking this guy's advice on the use of torture is like taking Rumsfeld's advice on troop levels.
A lot of the debate is centered around whether waterboarding is cruel and unusual enough to be considered "torture."
Then there are those who couldn't care if it's torture, they see justification in utilizing it if it extracts information from a subject that saves lives.
As for me, I haven't really followed the issue closely enough to come to an informed decision.
The real world works very differently then the 24 world, in that torture is about the most unreliable form of information gathering there is.
i have yet to see an anti-Gay Marriage argument that DIDN'T involve religion.
@the1jeffy
"And where did I say a person with faith has to turn it off when becoming an elected official? "
You did say this:
" he will take his religion with him into the Presidency, and quite frankly, that is against the Freedom of Religion."
I can easily see how jkdr25 interpreted it as he did.
There seems to be a common view that a person needs to seperate his/her religious views from his/her political views. This is complete and utter nonsense, and pretty much impossible for one to do assuming one actually has any genuine beliefs. A person's religious/spiritual views are one of the greatest factors that influence his moral views, and th